HC Deb 20 July 1977 vol 935 cc1584-6
10. Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith

asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects the National Bus Company to report to him about whether to introduce a national concessionary fares system for retirement pensioners.

Mr. Horam

The National Bus Company has launched several pilot schemes to study the commercial possibilities of various forms of travel concessions. I understand that it expects to be able to assess the results early next year.

Mr. Johnson Smith

Does the Minister agree that there is a large measure of unfairness and injustice in the present haphazard system, which means that elderly people in rural areas are worse off than those in urban areas? Has not the time come to introduce some uniformity into the system, as British Rail has, or to scrap bus concessionary fares altogether and help the elderly in another way?

Mr. Horam

I note once again the hon. Gentleman's plea for higher public expenditure. It is possibly true, as we agreed in the White Paper, that there is a need to iron out the anomalies that clearly exis—anomalies caused, I might add, by many Conservative councils not offering schemes of the sort available in Labour-controlled areas. We hope that this will be possible under the suggestions that we have made for various improvements and the extra£25 million.

Mr. Loyden

May I press my hon. Friend on the question of anomalies, since in metropolitan county areas there is a marked difference between the way in which various authorities react to the question of concessionary fares? Does my hon. Friend agree that at least there should be equitable action by authorities vis-à-vis pensioners?

Mr. Horam

We are anxious to encourage precisely that. That is why we have given more money and why we have removed the stop on local councils putting up new schemes. We hope that more schemes will come forward and will be financed by the Government, so that in this way we shall be able to iron out the anomalies about which my hon. Friend is concerned.

Mr. Johnson Smith

Will the Minister acknowledge——

Hon. Members

No.

Mr. Speaker

Perhaps I should explain that it is an old custom in the House that on occasion an hon. Member is allowed two supplementary questions.

Mr. Skinner

Only on the other side.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not like that suggestion. Mr. Johnson Smith.

Mr. Johnson Smith

I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. To be fair, will the Minister understand that I was not asking for an increase in public expenditure? Is he aware that British Rail operates concessionary fares for elderly people without any increase in costs to British Rail, but running at a profit?

Mr. Horam

Yes, I accept that, but the hon. Gentleman must understand that the proposals of the National Bus Company do not relate solely to elderly people. It is proposing in one or two limited areas particular concessions for all adults to make use of off-peak fares. That is the proposal, and I do not think that it can be a national scheme as yet.

Mr. Newens

Is my hon. Friend aware that in their desire to save public expenditure many Conservative-controlled authorities—egged on by many right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition Benches—have provided far inferior schemes, which have led to many of the anomalies about which hon. Members have been complaining? Ought not my hon. Friend to make clear that it is impossible to have a decent concessionary fares system for the elderly unless we are prepared, as we should be, to make the necessary payments in public expenditure terms?

Mr. Horam

My hon. Friend is quite right. People are concerned about this. That is why we allocated£25 million more—an increase from £95 million to£120 million—for concessionary fare schemes throughout the country. This must make a difference.

Mr. Ridsdale

Will the Minister get his facts right? Is it not true that if there were a national scheme there would be a saving in Government expenditure and it would be much fairer to certain areas, where there are many retired people who cannot afford to have such concessionary fares borne on the rates?

Mr. Horam

If there were a national scheme it would cost more than£200 million, as opposed to the present£95 million, or the£120 million we propose in the White Paper.