HC Deb 12 July 1977 vol 935 cc206-9
7. Mr. Dykes

asked the Secretary of State for Employment if he is satisfied with the progress being made in finding a mediated solution to the industrial dispute affecting Grunwick Limited; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Booth

As I told the House in a statement on 30th June, I have appointed a court of inquiry into this dispute. The inquiry is now under way.

Mr. Dykes

I appreciate that we cannot go into the intrinsic merits of the dispute now, but does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the philosophy of large numbers involved in the huge demonstration yesterday was wholly out of place, irresponsible, and bound to inflame the situation, making it much worse than it would have been otherwise? Will he prevail upon the TUC to consider having a proper debate on picketing at its conference in September? Would it not be a good idea to think through the idea of a code of conduct, and preferably to think of having a specific ratio of pickets to the number of employees at any industrial site?

Mr. Booth

There is another Question on the Order Paper specifically relating to picketing. What was out of place yesterday, and what is condemned by the Government, the TUC and APEX, was the violence that was demonstrated, which I believe is untypical. It was carried out by a very small and unrepresentative minority. Although it will be necessary to examine its implications for the law on picketing, I do not think we should do anything to suggest that what happened outside Grunwick's yesterday is in any way representative of the way in which industrial disputes are generally conducted in this country.

Mr. Douglas-Mann

Does my right hon. Friend agree that although many people in the Labour Party have no sympathy whatever with Grunwick's, they regard the sort of picketing that has been taking place there as intimidation, as a threat to freedom and as almost inevitably creating the violence that took place?

Mr. Skinner

Cross the Floor.

Mr. Douglas-Mann

Is it not time that the Government put their authority behind an appeal to members of trade unions not to take part in that sort of picketing? Does my right hon. Friend agree that violence is inevitable if that sort of picketing is carried out?

Mr. Skinner

Join John Gorst.

Mr. Booth

I do not accept that violence is inevitable in a large-scale demonstration. If the calls of the TUC and APEX had been heeded by all those who took part in the demonstration, there would have been no violence. However, I accept fully that the violence that took place outside Grunwick's both yesterday and on a previous occasion is of such a serious nature that it requires a reexamination of the law on picketing.

Mr. Prior

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is not good enough for the Government merely to condemn violence? What they have to do is condemn the number of people picketing. At the same time, they should have condemned the demonstrations that took place yesterday, which anyone except a Government as naïve as this one could not possibly have believed would lead to violence in itself. Will the right hon. Gentleman now firmly state that he is against the numbers picketing, that the numbers should be reduced now to no more than the numbers that were present before the violence started, some weeks ago, and that all other picketing and other demonstrations should be called off while the court of inquiry is sitting?

Mr. Booth

The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that before a Minister can issue edicts about the numbers picketing, a change in the law, which must be approved by the House, is required.

Mr. Prior

Surely the right hon. Gentleman and the Government are in a position to offer advice, and perhaps to set an example.

Mr. Booth

The Government have offered considerable advice. I have been involved in talks with the leaders of the union and the TUC about this matter. If the advice offered by those leaders of the TUC and the union and myself had been accepted, there would not have been the violent action that took place yesterday.

Mr. Pavitt

Does my right hon. Friend accept that outside the Grunwick factory there is a clear distinction between the numbers that the police have agreed with the union should be on picket duty and those involved in the demonstration who have nothing to do with the genuine, straightforward picketing that is going on? Does he further accept that even when there are as many as 1,000 people in the Cooper Road area, the vast majority are pursuing the aim of trying to make an impact upon an intransigent situation without any violence what so-ever? Will he there fore address himself to the question that if the basic problem is to be solved the symptoms should be removed, and that the rulings on law and order should be applied to Mr. Ward, who should accept them and not quibble and incur further delays?

Mr. Booth

I very much hope that Mr. Ward and the management of Grun- wick will accept rulings on law and order. I say that bearing in mind particularly the announcement made by the Lord Chief Justice in the High Court today, indicating that the view of that court is that the ACAS recommendation that Grunwick should recognise the clerical union, APEX, should be upheld.

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