HC Deb 11 July 1977 vol 935 cc36-8
Mr. Greville Janner

I beg to ask leave, Mr. Speaker, to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, the need for immediate action to prevent the export from Britain to Uganda of equipment for the use of Uganda's armed forces or police. On Thursday of last week my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Overseas Development answered a Question I had asked her concerning supplies to Uganda for the use of the armed forces or police. She replied: I understand from the Chairman of the Crown Agents that they have received no recent orders from Uganda for the armed forces or police. They are, however, in the course of completing an order for vehicles which was placed in 1974. The remaining 38 trucks and two Land Rovers are now ready for shipment. The Crown Agents' legal advice is that these vehicles are already the property of the Ugandan Government, and shipment must, therefore, proceed. "—[Official Report, 7th July 1977; Vol. 934, c. 6161] Taking the view that it would hardly be the wish of this House or the British people that mechanised tumbrils should be sent out to the police or armed forces in Uganda, I inquired of the Department of Trade what it was proposing to do to stop the export of equipment specifically designed for use by the armed forces or police of that terrible dictatorship. The Department's answer was that, as these goods were not classified as military equipment, even though they were going to the military authorities, their export required no licence and therefore the Department had no power to prevent the export.

The Department of Trade referred me to the Department of Overseas Trade, which said that this was a matter for the Crown Agents, who are independent people, who are servants of Parliament and of the people, but who regarded the giving of any information regarding these orders as matters of commercial confidentiality. Because I did not wish to take the time of the House I sought an undertaking from the Crown Agents that they would at least hold up the export of these goods until this House had had the opportunity at least of discussing whether it would be the will of the Government, of the House and of the people that these goods should be exported.

The managing director of the Crown Agents this morning specifically refused to give me that undertaking. He specifically refused to say whether the goods had been paid for by Amin's régime. He refused to say where the goods were being kept or when they would be shipped. In the circumstances it appeared to me that there was no alternative other than to ask for your ruling, Mr. Speaker, that in this very unusual case it will be necessary for the House to adjourn to debate whether we ought to supply goods for the army or the police of this dreadful dictatorship.

If you refuse your consent, Mr. Speaker—and I fully appreciate that I am entirely in your hands—we do not know whether the goods will be shipped, where they will be shipped from, or precisely where they will be shipped to. It is possible that an opportunity will arise for a debate at a later stage but by then it may be too late. If so, we shall have the moral responsibility in this House of having approved through the Crown Agents, who are agents of the Crown and of Parliament and of the people, the sale of these goods, part of which are manufactured by British Leyland, in which I believe the British people have a certain interest.

This morning the managing director of the Crown Agents would give me only one more bit of information. He said that the trucks were manufactured by Bedford. I submit that the workers at Bedford and at British Leyland would have certain objections to the fruits of their efforts being shipped out to Amin for use by his police and his army for the suppression of freedom in that country.

This is a matter for the House. The House, through the Government, has decided that diplomatic relations should be broken off with Uganda. The House should decide at this stage that we would not wish any goods whatever to go to Uganda, certainly not those to be used by the armed forces or the police.

This is the only opportunity the House has to debate this issue and I ask you most earnestly, Mr. Speaker, to comply with my application. Otherwise there will be no opportunity, in all probability, for the House to consider this matter.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner) gave me notice this morning, before 12 o'clock, that he was to raise this matter and seek an emergency debate on, the need for immediate action to prevent the export from Britain to Uganda of equipment for the use of Uganda's armed forces or police. It is not for me, as the House knows, to consider the importance of an issue or whether it should be debated. It is merely for me to decide whether it should be debated in place of the business put down by the Chairman of Ways and Means tonight or should take precedence over the business tomorrow.

I have to rule that the hon. and learned Gentleman's submission does not fall within the provisions of the Standing Order. Therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House. I advise him to look for other means, which he will realise are available in the coming period.