HC Deb 24 January 1977 vol 924 cc958-60
40. Mr. Gow

asked the Lord President of the Council how many representations he received before the introduction of the Scotland and Wales Bill that the Government's proposals for devolution in Wales and in Scotland should be contained in separate Bills.

The Minister of State, Privy Council Office (Mr. John Smith)

Eight, Sir.

Mr. Gow

Will the hon. Gentleman interpret from that small number the depth of feeling in the country and the House that it is most inappropriate that the Government's devolution proposals for Wales and Scotland should be dealt with in the same Bill? Will he understand that there are different considerations applying to Wales and Scotland, and even at this late hour introduce a separate Bill, please, for Wales?

Mr. Smith

I am suspicious of the hon. Gentleman's suggestions to improve the consideration of a Bill to which he is so devotedly opposed. I note that these suggestions tend to come from those who, rightly or wrongly, are opposed to the principle of the Bill. We believe that it is practicable to put both schemes within one Bill without doubling its time in Parliament. We believe, too, that it is proper that that should be done. Those eight representations were out of the 442 that we received before the Bill was published.

Mr. Michael Marshal

Will the hon. Gentleman accept that the eight representations to which he referred should not be taken as the quantity of the judgment of the nation in this matter? Does he accept that the nation looks to this House, this House of representatives, to reach judgments on this matter? Will he also accept the strong feeling of many of us that this is a totally irrelevant measure that is totally devoid of real interest to the country at large, facing as we do a grave economic crisis?

Mr. Smith

I am aware of the varying opinions held on this matter in the House, as I have listened to them at great length during the proceedings on the Bill. The hon. Gentleman ought to bear in mind that recently the House decided by a fairly clear vote to retain Wales in the Bill.

Mr. Pym

Will the hon. Gentleman accept that, because the Bill combines the proposed arrangements for Scotland and Wales in one document and a separate arrangement is being prepared for each, it is already clear that the House will get into difficulties in dealing adequately with the arrangements for Scotland and Wales? Would not it be easier for the House to cope if the arrangements for Scotland and Wales were separate?

As the Government are bringing the proposals forward together and intertwining them in one Bill, are not the House and Parliament being nut in an impossible position in being asked to go through the complicated and extensive legislative proposals that are involved in one Bill? To deal with these proposals in 20 days or 30 days, or whatever it might turn out to be, is inadequate in view of the magnitude and range of the basic constitutional issues involved. This is a very serious decision that the Government have taken. Does not the hon. Gentleman think that it would have been better to have divided the Bill?

Mr. Smith

With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, who knows the provisions of the Bill, it is clear that, where there are certain provisions that are common to both countries, the Bill can be discussed with those in mind. Where there are real differences within the schemes, these are set out separately within the Bill. It should be practicable for the House to deal adequately with those, giving full attention to the interests of Wales and Scotland, provided that it has the will to do so. I hope that all hon. Members will co-operate to make sure that that is done.

Mr. Heffer

As there are probably more people of Welsh origin on Merseyside and in Liverpool in particular than there are in Swansea, and probably more people of Irish origin there than are in Dublin, and as we also have a sprinkling of Lancastrians, does my hon. Friend see the future of Merseyside in a Bill of any kind? Should we have UDI, too?

Mr. Smith

I enjoyed my hon. Friend's tour of the sprinkling of nationalities around the United Kingdom. I know that there are a few Scots in his constituency. They were the only ones that he omitted.

My hon. Friend will be aware that the Government published a document on the possibility of devolution to England. No doubt whatever solution my hon. Friend proposes for Merseyside, if any, will be followed by his getting in touch with us as his contribution to the discussion following the publication of the document.