HC Deb 24 January 1977 vol 924 cc952-4
28. Mr. Tim Renton

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he is satisfied with the increase in Civil Service numbers in 1975 by 51,199 to 745.120; what plans he has to reduce numbers in the Civil Service; and whether he will announce specific targets for this.

The Minister of State, Civil Service Department (Mr. Charles R. Morris)

I am never satisfied when Civil Service manpower shows an increase, but I am, however, convinced that the strength of the Civil Service is reasonable in the light of the work which it is given to do.

The hon. Member must bear in mind that a large part of the increase over the period was due to the return to the Civil Service on 1st January 1976, as a consequence of the Employment Protection Act, of the staff of the Manpower Services Commission.

The savings already announced will reduce Civil Departments' planned expenditure on Civil Service manpower and related administration by £76 million in 1977–78 and £120 million in 1978–79 at 1976 prices. In manpower terms, this, together with reductions in the Ministry of Defence, represents a reduction from the planned numbers of some 46,000 staff by 1978–79.

Mr. Renton

In the light of the strike action that has been threatened, will the Minister say exactly how he proposes to achieve the savings he has mentioned? To what extent does he agree with the report in the Sunday Times yesterday that the devolution Bill, if passed, is likely to lead to a growth in the number of civil servants and public sector employees far larger than the Government have yet admitted?

Mr. Morris

The industrial action to which the hon. Gentleman referred has been called off. I should perhaps explain that the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum to the Scotland and Wales Bill makes clear that the Bill does not materially affect the manpower requirements of public bodies outside the Civil Service. Any plans by the new administration after devolution to alter the level of service provided will have to be set against its other priorities.

Mr. Dalyell

What is the latest Government estimate in figures of the extra number of civil servants needed for the Scottish Assembly?

Mr. Morris

I have nothing to add to the statistics provided in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum.

Mrs. Bain

Is the Minister aware of the deep resentment in Scotland at the reduction in the number of civil servants to an extent that has meant the closure of the Civil Service College in Edinburgh? Will he give a commitment to civil servants in Scotland in terms of the Hardman Report and guarantee that there will be dispersal to Scotland, particularly in view of the unemployment figure for Scotland of 180,000 to be announced tomorrow?

Mr. Morris

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for posing that supplementary question, because it provides me with an opportunity of reaffirming the Labour Government's commitment to dispersing civil servants to Glasgow. The figure quoted recently of £1,000 million public expenditure as the cost involved in dispersing civil servants I can say categorically is a myth. The guarantee that the people of Scotland have of Civil Service dispersal is that the Labour Government believe in the economic well-being of Scotland.

Mr. Tebbit

And fairies.