HC Deb 12 January 1977 vol 923 cc1425-7
16. Mr. Ioan Evans

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what further consideration has been given to reestablishing an integrated transport system.

Mr. William Rodgers

My extensive series of meetings with many of those who have submitted major comments on the consultation document has frequently covered this ground.

Mr. Evans

Before my right hon. Friend introduces the White Paper, will he take a good look at the 1947 Act, introduced by the Labour Government just after the war, and introduce an integrated transport system which is efficient, effective and profitable? Will he look again at the question of an integrated system to take the heavy congested traffic off the roads and on to the under-used railways?

Mr. Rodgers

Yes, of course I shall look at the 1947 Act and at the whole history of post-war legislation. We have achieved a good deal in that period, but there are still problems. Circumstances change and problems require different solutions. However, I give my hon. Friend the undertaking that he seeks.

Mr. Gow

What consideration has the Secretary of State given to the possibility of denationalising the National Bus Company? What consultations has he had about the extent to which the present licensing system prevents people being able to travel to work in the way in which they would like, which would often be in buses in competition with British Rail and with the National Bus Company?

Mr. Rodgers

The answer to the hon. Gentleman's first question is that I have had no consultations and do not propose to have any. The answer to the second question is that, of course, the question of the licensing system, which was mentioned earlier this afternoon, is one of the matters that I have discussed with a number of interests. I shall be reviewing it in the course of completing the preparation before issuing my White Paper.

21. Mr. Moate

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what steps have been taken since October 1974 to co-ordinate and integrate transport services.

Mr. William Rodgers

The co-ordination of particular services and of transport operations remains primarily the responsibility of the transport industries and local authorities.

Mr. Moate

Does the Secretary of State know that the Labour manifesto of 1974 actually promised to co-ordinate and integrate transport services? Two and a half years later, however, we have worse train services, worse bus services, much higher fares and massive subsidies. Is all this due to ministerial incompetence, or was the election promise nonsense?

Mr. Rodgers

I am delighted to know of the hon. Gentleman's commitment to our 1974 manifesto and I look forward to his urging me on future occasions that it should be fully carried out. We issued a consultation document about a year ago. All those involved in the transport industries have appreciated the opportunity of expressing their views. This is a unique exercise in consultation on transport policies. As I said in reply to an earlier question, circumstances change; and if we can settle on a policy that will carry a large measure of agreement and last to the end of the century the country will be infinitely better off.

Mr. Mellish

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of Britain's tragedies is that on that wonderful waterway the River Thames there is hardly any traffic throughout the day? We are the only country that would allow a highway of that kind to be so unused. Is he doing anything about it?

Mr. Rodgers

I have deep sympathy with my right hon. Friend's views in this respect. Comparisons between, for example, the Thames and the Rhine are certainly striking. On the other hand, the circumstances are different. The Rhine, unlike the Thames, is a main artery of Europe. I should stop at that point, because I must tell the House that waterways are not one of my responsibilities.

Mr. Stephen Ross

Does the Secretary of State accept that, if he is to have an integrated transport system, he will have to take some unpopular steps about restricting access to inner city areas by private car owners? A typical example of the chaos that results was what happened over the Christmas period when the public services were in very short supply and people brought their cars into London and parked them haphazardly everywhere. Some decision must be made about this.

Mr. Rodgers

I have already said that there must inevitably be restrictions in towns on the flow of traffic. I suggested earlier, however, that this is an area where there must be a large degree of local decision and local option in an attempt to find a balance. In transport we should not always be going for polarised views. It would be a good idea if we could agree on more things rather than that we should seek opportunities to disagree.