HC Deb 12 January 1977 vol 923 cc1422-4
14. Dr. McDonald

asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he last met the Chairman of the National Bus Company.

17. Mr. Beith

asked the Secretary of State for Transport when he next expects to meet the Chairman of the National Bus Company.

18. Mr. Newens

asked the Secretary of State for Transport when next he expects to meet the Chairman of the National Bus Company.

Mr. William Rodgers

I last saw the Chairman of the National Bus Company at the end of November 1976, and I am to meet him again later this week.

Dr. McDonald

When my right hon. Friend next meets the Chairman of the National Bus Company, will he discuss the matter of the deficit due to be faced by London Country Bus Services in Essex and surrounding areas next year? Will he discuss what action must be taken to prevent the closure of Grays garage, for example, and the possible disappearance of bus services from Essex? Will he discuss with the chairman ways of preventing this disaster from hitting Essex?

Mr. Rodgers

I am aware of the particular problems of Essex, where the county council has provided reduced support. The county council does not have a good record in this respect. The services operated by the National Bus Company represent a special problem which my hon. Friend is right to raise.

Mr. Beith

Will the Secretary of State discuss with the Chairman of the National Bus Company the possibility of devising a national scheme of cheap fares for pensioners to replace local schemes? Does he realise that in many rural areas, where distances are greater and fares consequently higher, no help is available to pensioners? Does he agree that the Government are discouraging local authorities from introducing cheap fare schemes? Is it not better to spread resources widely so that pensioners throughout the country get the same help?

Mr. Rodgers

This is not so much a matter to discuss with the Chairman of the National Bus Company, although I shall draw his attention to it. These are difficult questions of national policy and involve how much we have available for fare subsidies and the degree of local option. We have discussed the matter in the House before, and I would welcome further discussion.

Mr. Stan Crowther

Would it not be in the interests of sensible, rationalised transport operations if the undertakings of the National Bus Company in the metropolitan areas were handed over to the passenger transport authorities? Is my right hon. Friend willing to initiate talks about this with the Association of Metropolitan Authorities and the Chairman of the National Bus Company?

Mr. Rodgers

No, I do not think I would agree, though this is very much a legitimate area for discussion. I think it would be found that the different metropolitan areas take different views. Certainly some of them would prefer their writ to run over the NBC; others believe that the present arrangements are the best. I think that it is half a dozen of one and six of the other. The NBC operates national trunk routes, and if these were broken up in order that the metropolitan counties were to run them there would be certain diseconomies and they could become more expensive. However, these are matters that will no doubt be discussed during further con- sultations on the basis of the document published last year.

Mr. Adley

Is the Secretary of State aware that I came to see his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary some weeks ago, together with Mr. Deputy Speaker, to discuss precisely the sort of way in which the National Bus Company could be persuaded to introduce some form of reduced rate card for old-age pensioners, perhaps along the lines of the British Rail scheme which is available in off-peak hours? Does not the right hon. Gentleman accept that the NBC must have some obligation to offset its virtual monopoly over large tracts of the country? Will he now please take this matter to the Chairman of the NBC on his own initiative?

Mr. Rodgers

I entirely agree. I want to make it absolutely clear that it is very legitimate to raise the problem of concessionary fares for old people. Many of us think that something ought to be done about it. However, at the same time, we recognise that there is here a large area for local option. If the NBC is to operate successfully within the limits of revenue support, I am afraid that it must be allowed to make many of these decisions on its own account. I shall, however, mention this matter to the chairman, as I have already made clear.