NORTHERN IRELAND (CONSUMER PROTECTION) (Hansard, 23 February 1977)

§ The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. J. D. Concannon)
I beg to move, That the Consumer Protection and Advice (Northern Ireland) Order 1977, a draft of which was laid before this House on 17th February, be approved. The order contains two highly desirable provisions which will bring Northern Ireland consumer law further into line with that presently existing in the rest of the United Kingdom. The first will make control of goods which fail to meet safety requirements of Consumer Protection Act regulations more effective. The second will enable district councils to provide advisory services to consumers. The opportunity has also been taken to bring the defences available under the Northern Ireland Consumer Protection Act into line with those in other recent consumer legislation.
It is for the convenience of the House that I leave it that. The provisions are considered to be necessary, and, accordingly, I commend the order to the House.

§ Mr. John Biggs-Davison (Epping Forest)
I shall be at least as brief as the Minister who introduced the draft order. I should like to ask him two questions. First, by amending the Consumer Protection Act (Northern Ireland) 1965 the draft order will make it possible for proceedings to be instituted against manufacturers or importers who supplied the goods in question instead of or in addition to the retail supplier. By whom will these proceedings be instituted? Will it be by the consumer or the retailer, or both?
I turn to the power to provide advice to or for the benefit of consumers of goods and services. We are informed that 1559 the Belfast City Council is already cooperating closely with the Department of Commerce in the establishment of a multi-purpose advice centre. The question that springs to mind in these difficult days is: what is the cost likely to be? What will be the cost of the similar centre which is to be set up in Londonderry? I shall be obliged if the Minister can give a little information on those points.

§ Mr. Robert J. Bradford (Belfast, South)
It has rightly been said that there are two important aspects to the order. The first is in article 3, which brings Northern Ireland legislation broadly into line with that in the rest of the United Kingdom, and the second is in article 4, which deals with consumer advice centres or facilities for giving advice to consumers. It is on article 4 that I wish to dwell. I wish to put a number of questions to the Minister in the hope of extracting further information which will be helpful not only to Northern Ireland Members but, if the debate is reported in the Press, to the public in Northern Ireland.
I first wish to know how the new advice centres will liaise with the existing Northern Ireland Consumer Council which has its headquarters on the Knockbreda Road. Is it not possible that there is duplication in the Belfast area? I understand that the new centre will cost about £50,000. How will it function in a way that is different from the work of the Northern Ireland Consumer Council? Will the operations of these two bodies merge? What is their relationship? If they are to remain separate, can it be argued that there is a need for another advice centre at a cost of £50,000? Is it not possible for the Northern Ireland Consumer Council to work through the Citizens Advice Bureaux, making its expertise available in that way, rather than incurring extra expenditure by giving each district council the right to buy property and establish a fairly elaborate set-up?
Turning now to personnel, I understand that the present Consumer Council is made up only of consumers. The point has been made to be by someone with a life-long interest in this subject that the council could well function more profitably if there were traders represented on it. They could be made aware of the concern over the initial cost of the pro- 1560 duct and its retail price as well as asking the right sort of questions which would help to keep prices at a realistic level. Is the Minister satisfied that there is a broad spectrum of opinion on the council?
I understand that the Northern Ireland Consumer Council does not accept individual complaints but deals largely in generalities. Will the district councils, when they are formed, receive individual complaints and reach decisions on them? If so, that might be one of the best reasons for bringing them into being. Will they go so far as to recommend certain products? There are those of us who feel that this might be the most helpful way for them to do their job. What liaison will exist between the district councils, the weights and measures departments and the Price Commission? Will there be a direct liaison? Is there one at the moment?

§ Mr. McCusker (Armagh)
The people of Northern Ireland learned last week, not for the first time, that Northern Ireland was the most expensive region in the United Kingdom, and those of us who live there will support that assertion. They were told, I suppose to console them, that the gap between Northern Ireland and the other regions was getting smaller. If that had meant that the cost of living in Northern Ireland was falling there might have been some point in explaining that fact, All that is happening, however, is that the cost of living in the other regions is creeping up. With the exception of very few items, things in Northern Ireland are more expensive than they are in the rest of the United Kingdom. We have discussed some of them at length over the past few weeks. This means, therefore, that Northern Ireland is both the most dangerous part of the United Kingdom in which to live and the most expensive.
Because of his preoccupation with violence and constitutional affairs, I am sure that the average consumer in Northern Ireland is not so aware of his rights as are people in other parts of the kingdom. Any attempt to educate the Northern Ireland consumer to take full advantage of his rights under the law is to be commended. Also to be commended is the drive of the district councils to gain greater powers. Although this is a very small movement, we support 1561 the move to give these councils greater powers.
We are more concerned with making the public cost-conscious so that it wants to get value for money. We must, however, sound a note of caution, and that is what my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Bradford) has sought to do. There is little point in establishing centres which cost tens of thousands of pounds through a direct levy on the rates if at the end of the day we do not get value for money. I hope that in using this power the district councils will ensure when setting up their advice centres that they are not duplicating the facilities already provided by the Citizens Advice Bureaux, and so on. The advice centres should be tailored to the needs of the smaller community, and they should not go in for elaborate offices operating on a full-time basis. The district councils can use this provision to the advantage of the ratepayers, and I welcome that.

§ Mr. Concannon
At the outset I said that the order contained two highly desirable provisions to bring Northern Ireland consumer law into line with the existing law in the rest of the United Kingdom. The Consumer Council and the advice centres will cover two different functions. Those of us who represent seats in Great Britain come across these regularly. The Consumer Council deals with the general questions of consumer matters. The advice centres deal with individual complaints and inquiries.
Perhaps I may explain the working of the system as it operates in my area of Nottinghamshire. My county council conducts an examination of a specific area of activity. It then circulates advice, perhaps by advertisements in the newspapers. It might deal with house conveyancing one month, carpets the next and something else the month after. It points out where to get not only the cheapest buys but the best service to go with them. The shops are now accustomed to this method of finding out what they are charging.
I was asked about the prosecution of importers and manufacturers. It would be for the Department of Commerce to 1562 determine which cases are suitable for this approach.
A total of £100,000 has been set aside out of Government funds for the establishment of advice centres in Belfast and Londonderry. A maximum of £60,000 has been promised to the Belfast City Council, in its capacity as agent for the Department of Commerce, towards establishing the advice centre there, provided that it takes over the centre completely after the order comes into operation.
That is not so in Londonderry. The Londonderry City Council would not enter an agreement with the Department of Commerce, so the Department decided to establish an advice centre there and staff it with its own trading standards staff. The cost will be borne by Government funds other than those set aside for establishing advice centres. We hope and anticipate that the Londonderry City Council will take over the centre, but if it will not the centre will close down after a year. Basically it is up to the Londonderry City Council.
If other councils feel that they individually, or an amalgam of a number of them, want to set up an advice centre, they should get in touch with my Department, which will offer all sorts of assistance as long as the money lasts. Those that are first in the queue will be the first to get assistance.

§ Mr. Bradford
Am I to understand that because the Londonderry City Council is not taking the advice centre under its wing the Belfast ratepayers will have to pay for their centre but the Londonderry ratepayers will not have to pay for theirs?

§ Mr. Concannon
No. We have set up the centre in Belfast on the understanding that once the order has gone through it will be taken over by the Belfast City Council. There is no problem there. The Belfast council was only too eager and anxious to take over the centre.
In Londonderry we could not come to a similar agreement. The Londonderry council did not want an agreement. So we carried on with the establishment of the centre, and we are staffing it ourselves out of Government funds. If the Londonderry council does not take over the centre after a year, I am afraid it will have to 1563 close. It is our wish that the council will take over this function.