HC Deb 07 February 1977 vol 925 cc1049-52
36. Mr. Tim Renton

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when, in his capacity as economic adviser to Her Majesty's Government, he proposes to meet with President Carter's economic advisers.

Mr. Lever

I had the pleasure of meeting Vice-President Mondale and some of President Carter's leading economic advisers during their recent visit to the United Kingdom.

Mr. Renton

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware from those talks—I am sure that he is—of the close linkage in the free enterprise American economy between low interest rates and a low inflation rate? Is he concerned that once the benefits of North Sea oil start gushing into the Treasury, the restraints on domestic credit expansion imposed by the IMF will be lifted and that his Government will once again indulge in the inflationary antics of the past two years?

Mr. Lever

I am not certain that I accept that the pipeline from the North Sea has as its terminal Her Majesty's Treasury, but I am aware that it is of the greatest importance, if we are to get interest rates down—as we must, and it is the Government's policy to bring it about—that we bring inflation under much firmer control. We are determined to do this, and I think that the Government's policy shows great promise—though, admittedly, it requires a great amount of patience—of getting to that goal.

Mr. Ioan Evans

Does my right hon. Friend realise that President Carter fought on a Democrat ticket to increase public expenditure, to reduce unemployment and to cut back on defence expenditure? These are the policies which many Labour Back Benchers have been advocating to this Government. Will my right hon. Friend get together with the President's economic advisers to try to get the world out of the international recession that we see at present?

Mr. Lever

Without claiming that the Democratic Party is affiliated to the Labour Party, I agree that the policies of the victorious Democrat President appear to be much more related to those of the Labour Party than to those of the Tory Party. The broad ideas that my hon. Friend has expressed are very much in my mind and, I am glad to say, are firmly in the minds of the American President, the Vice-President and all the leading advisers whom I have met.

Mr. Rost

When the right hon. Gentleman meets the American economic advisers, will he be able to persuade them that he is as experienced in repaying the huge debts with which he has lumbered us as he has been in incurring them?

Mr. Lever

The hon. Gentleman shows a vulgar ignorance in suggesting that I incurred the debt or that it will fall to me to repay the debt—

Mr. Rost

The right hon. Gentleman was the Government's adviser.

Mr. Lever

The hon. Gentleman seems anxious to imply by his question that there is some dubiety about whether the British Government, whatever their political complexion at the time, will honour the debts that they have incurred. It should be borne in mind that this country has never defaulted on its obligations and debts, and in my judgment there is not the slightest possibility of their ever doing so.

Mr. Heffer

In view of the fact that my right hon. Friend seemed to indicate that the American Government were in line with the thinking of the Labour Party, will he adopt the views of the present American Administration about developing a public works programme, for which many of us have been asking for some time, as one of the ways of bringing down unemployment?

Mr. Lever

I hope that my hon. Friend will bear in mind that he overstates the identity of the American President's views with those of the British Cabinet. He seems to be overstating even more the identity of circumstances that prevail and the situation generally that prevails in the United States with those in our own country. There is no special reason to initiate public works in Britain to parallel those in the Unted States. I was claiming that the broad outlook indicated by my hon. Friend in his previous supplementary question was very much my own outlook and very much the outlook of the President and all his senior advisers.

Mr. Prior

When the right hon. Gentleman next sees American officials, or even the United States President, will he put right the impression that he gave on his last visit to Washington, when he told the Americans that, in his view, unless the IMF loan was granted the Labour Government would fall and that no other Government could get on with the trade unions? Will he make it clear that this was a totally false and erroneous impression and that he had no right to give it?

Mr. Lever

I think that the House would be wise not to treat the right hon. Gentleman's slightly paranoid hallucinations as if they were a totaly accurate account of what I said. Unfortunately, they bear little relation to what I said. Again, they represent a kind of vulgar demagogic assumption that is not based on reality. If the right hon. Gentleman really believes that negotiations at a high international level are conducted on that naive basis, he had better reflect a little longer on the matter.

Mr. Skinner

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), in another capacity as consultant to Trust House Forte Hotels, is attempting to stop trade unionists from becoming members of the T & GWU? How does my right hon. Friend view the right hon. Gentleman's challenge to him on this matter, when he is being paid very highly to prevent people becoming members of a trade union?

Mr. Lever

I follow the activities of the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) with as little closeness as he appears to have been following mine. Therefore, I am unable to express any view on my hon. Friend's question. I make it clear, however, that in my indignant rebuttal of the posture attributed to me in the United States I was not challenging the implication that the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friend's would not be able to run this country with any satisfaction to the ordinary people of the country.

Mr. Prior

Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that he believes that the average person in this country is satisfied with a record of 1.5 million people unemployed and a state of affairs in which, in the three years of this Government, the standard of living has been eroded?

Mr. Lever

Oddly enough, if the right hon. Gentleman had listened to me he would have realised that I was not expressing any opinion or estimate about what ordinary people thought of us; I was saying what I thought they thought of him and his colleagues.