HC Deb 15 December 1977 vol 941 cc889-92
3. Mr. Gow

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he last met the leaders of the Fire Brigades Union; and if he will make a statement.

4. Mr. Skinner

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many meetings he has had with leaders of the Fire Brigades Union; and if he will make a statement.

11. Mr. Whitehead

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he next expects to meet the executive of the Fire Brigades Union.

20. Mr. Channon

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a further statement on the pay claim by firemen.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

I last met the full Executive Council of the Fire Brigades Union at the meeting between the Prime Minister and the Fire Brigades Union on 29th November. Since 14th November my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I have been in close touch with representatives of both sides of the National Joint Council for Local Authorities' Fire Brigades. We are ready to meet them again at any time, and I last saw the Joint Secretaries on 8th December. On the general question of the firemen's pay claim, I refer to the statement I made to the House on 8th December.

Mr. Gow

Does the Home Secretary think that there is room, in any formula that may be arranged for the settlement of this strike, to follow up the suggestion, made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw), that part of the deal should be that the Fire Brigades Union would give up the right to strike as Dart of the settlement?

Mr. Rees

Whatever the merits of discussion of that suggestion are—and I personally do not think that there are any—negotiations are taking place now, and I believe that negotiations are best caried out across the negotiating table.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

I shall call those hon. Members whose Questions are being answered.

Mr. Skinner

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the statement by the TUC Finance and General Purposes Committee, issued the other week, was a body blow to the Fire Brigades Union? Will he now acknowledge that the TUC General Council could well overturn that decision when it meets on 21st December? Will he take that factor into account, and accept the advice of Terry Parry this morning to advance the timetable and put more money on the table now?

Mr. Rees

The Government have made their view quite clear. The offer that the local authorities put forward is really a remarkable one and something that I believe is beginning to be understood. Let the negotiations carry on.

Mr. Whitehead

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the public and, indeed, many firemen regard the proposals that he put forward as an honourable basis for a settlement of this dispute? Will he confirm, however, that for many firemen, particularly in my own area, some parts of the NJC package are negotiable—not the 10 per cent. figure and the guidelines, but matters such as the precise introduction of the 42-hour week and what goes with it?

Mr. Rees

The question of the 42-hour week is for negotiation. I am sure that hon. Members on both sides have looked at the feasibility study on the 42-hour week. It raises a large number of issues, and, obviously, it is negotiable.

Mr. David Howell

Does the Home Secretary agree that, while we all want to see this strike settled as soon as possible, if it goes on over Christmas this will be a particularly risky time for domestic fire dangers and also a very rough time indeed for those having to perform the fire-fighting services? Will he, therefore, reassure us that those who are carrying out these duties have the full equipment available to them to carry them out most efficiently? What further steps have been taken since we last discussed this matter to train the troops to carry out the basic fire-fighting services and to use the more complex equipment that ought to be available to them?

Mr. Rees

I am sure that precautions are necessary. The number of fires has fallen and, although it is rising again, I understand that it is not back to the pre-strike level. On the question of the use of fire-fighting equipment, I am following the advice of the Chief Inspector of Fire Services. I am not in business to play politics about it. I know from the chief inspector's advice that to play about with modern equipment would be a foolish thing to do, and I am not prepared to depart from the professional advice that I have received.

Mr. Madden

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, in view of the most unfortunate experiences of the firemen as the victims of successive incomes policies under successive Goverments, there is suspicion about whether the guarantee formula is fire-proof? Does the Home Secretary understand that there needs to be an interim settlement now to make the whole package acceptable, and that it needs to be brought forward before Christmas if an honourable settlement is to be secured?

Mr. Rees

On the question of the guarantee, the Government have given their word about the phasing, and we stick to that. Over the weekend in my own constituency I was asked what would happen if there were a change of Government, and whether the guarantee could be banked on in that circumstance. It is not for me to say anything about that. I simply give the word of the Government now.

Mr. Bowden

If the present round of talks unfortunately fails, will the Home Secretary consider the possibility of himself holding a tripartite meeting with the union and the employers to discuss the specific point of trying to prepare and agree a productivity deal that would enable the working week to be reduced from 48 hours to 42, and for overtime to be paid immediately? I think that that would get the firemen back to work very quickly.

Mr. Rees

I only advise the hon. Gentleman to read the feasibility study on the 42-hour week, which shows the hours offered for work—I am not getting involved in the silly argument about firemen being there to wait for fires of course, they are—and look at the great differences between one brigade and another. That may well be the reason why the immediate productivity discussion has not got very far. But it is up to the negotiating body to look at these matters.