HC Deb 07 December 1977 vol 940 cc1521-62
Division List No. 38 [See c. 1465]
Division No. 38] AYES [6.54 p.m.
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Goodlad, Alastair Mudd, David
Arnold, Tom Gorst, John Nelson, Anthony
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Neubert, Michael
Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Nott, John
Awdry, Daniel Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Oppenheim, Mrs Sally
Banks, Robert Gray, Hamish Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)
Bell, Ronald Griffiths, Eldon Page, Richard (Workington)
Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) Grist, Ian Parkinson, Cecil
Benyon, W. Grylls, Michael Pattie, Geoffrey
Biffen, John Hall, Sir John Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Boscawen, Hon Robert Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Prior, Rt Hon James
Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) Hampson, Dr Keith Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Braine, Sir Bernard Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) Raison, Timothy
Brittan, Leon Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)
Brocklebank-Fowler, C. Hawkins, Paul Rhodes James, R.
Brooke, Peter Hodgson, Robin Ridley, Hon Nicholas
Brotherton, Michael Holland, Philip Ridsdale, Julian
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Hunt, David (Wirral) Rifkind, Malcolm
Bryan, Sir Paul Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Hutchison, Michael Clark Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Buck, Antony James, David Ross, William (Londonderry)
Budgen, Nick Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)
Chalker, Mrs Lynda Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) St. John-Stevas, Norman
Channon, Paul Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Shepherd, Colin
Churchill, W. S. Kershaw, Anthony Shersby, Michael
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) King, Evelyn (South Dorset) Silvester, Fred
Cockroft, John Kitson, Sir Timothy Sims, Roger
Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) Knox, David Sinclair, Sir George
Cope, John Lawson, Nigel Skeet, T. H. H.
Costain, A. P. Lester, Jim (Beeston) Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)
Dean, Paul (N Somerset) Luce, Richard Speed, Keith
Dodsworth, Geoffrey McCrindle, Robert Spence, John
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Macfarlane, Neil Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Drayson, Burnaby MacGregor, John Sproat, Iain
Dunlop, John MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) Stainton, Keith
Durant, Tony MacMillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Stanbrook, Ivor
Dykes, Hugh McNair-Wilson. P. (New Forest) Stokes, John
Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Stradling Thomas, J.
Eyre, Reginald Marten, Neil Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
Fairbairn, Nicholas Mather, Carol Tebbit, Norman
Fairgrieve, Russell Maude, Angus Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret
Farr, John Mawby, Ray Wakeham, John
Finsberg, Geoffrey Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Wall, Patrick
Fisher, Sir Nigel Mayhew, Patrick Walters, Dennis
Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) Meyer, Sir Anthony Warren, Kenneth
Fookes, Miss Janet Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Weatherill, Bernard
Forman, Nigel Mills, Peter Wells, John
Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) Moate, Roger Winterton, Nicholas
Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) Molyneaux, James Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)
Gardiner, George (Reigate) Monro, Hector Younger, Hon George
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) Moore, John (Croydon C)
Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) Morgan, Geraint TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Mr. Spencer le Marchant and Mr. Anthony Berry.
Goodhew, Victor Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)
NOES
Allaun, Frank Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Davies, Ifor (Gower)
Anderson, Donald Campbell, Ian Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)
Armstrong, Ernest Canavan, Dennis Deakins, Eric
Ashley, Jack Cant, R. B. Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)
Ashton, Joe Carmichael, Neil Dempsey, James
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Cartwright, John Doig, Peter
Atkinson, Norman Castle, Rt Hon Barbara Dormand, J. D.
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Duffy, A. E. P.
Bain, Mrs Margaret Cohen, Stanley Dunn, James A.
Bates, Alf Coleman, Donald Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)
Beith, A. J. Colquhoun, Ms Maureen Ewing, Harry (Stiring)
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.
Blenkinsop, Arthur Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Fitch, Alan (Wigan)
Boardman, H. Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) Flannery, Martin
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Crawford, Douglas Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Crawshaw, Richard Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Boyden, James (Bish Auck) Cronin, John Ford, Ben
Bray, Dr Jeremy Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Cryer, Bob Garrett, John (Norwich S)
Buchan, Norman Dalyell, Tam George, Bruce
Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) Davidson, Arthur Gilbert, Dr John
Ginsburg, David McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) Skinner, Dennis
Golding, John Madden, Max Small, William
Gould, Bryan Magee, Bryan Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)
Gourlay, Harry Mallalieu, J. P. W. Snape, Peter
Graham, Ted Marks, Kenneth Spearing, Nigel
Grant, George (Morpeth) Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Spriggs, Leslie
Grant, John (Islington C) Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) Stallard, A. W.
Grimond, Rt Hon J. Mason, Rt Hon Roy Steel, Rt Hon David
Grocott, Bruce Mellish, Rt Hon Robert Stewart, Rt Hon Donald
Harrison, Rt Hon Walte. Mikardo, Ian Stott, Roger
Hatton, Frank Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Strang, Gavin
Henderson, Douglas Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Hooson, Emlyn Mitchell, Austin Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Huckfield, Les Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) Noble, Mike Thompson, George
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Oakes, Gordon Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
Hunter, Adam Ogden, Eric Tinn, James
Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) Orbach, Maurice Torney, Tom
Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Jay, Rt Hon Douglas Padley, Walter Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) Palmer, Arthur Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)
John, Brynmor Pardoe, John Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Johnson, James (Hull West) Park, George Ward, Michael
Johnson, Walter (Derby S) Parker, John Watt, Hamish
Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Pavitt, Laurie Weetch, Ken
Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Pendry, Tom Welsh, Andrew
Jones, Barry (East Flint) Penhaligon, David White, Frank R. (Bury)
Judd, Frank Radice, Giles While, James (Pollok)
Kaufman, Gerald Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) Whitehead, Phillip
Kerr, Russell Reid, George Whitlock, William
Kilfedder, James Richardson, Miss Jo Wigley, Dafydd
Kilroy-Silk, Robert Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Lambie, David Robinson, Geoffrey Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Lamond, James Roderick, Caerwyn Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Rooker, J. W. Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Luard, Evan Roper, John Wise, Mrs Audrey
Lyon, Alexander (York) Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Woodall, Alec
Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) Woof, Robert
McCartney, Hugh Rowlands, Ted Wrigglesworth, Ian
MacCormick, Iain Sandelson, Neville Young, David (Bolton E)
McDonald, Dr Oonagh Sedgemore, Brian
Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Sever, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Mackintosh, John P. Sillars, James Mr. James Hamilton and Mr. Joseph Harper.
Maclennan, Robert Silverman, Julius
Division List No. 39 [See c. 1465]
Division No. 39] AYES [7.6 p.m.
Allaun, Frank Cronin, John Henderson, Douglas
Anderson, Donald Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) Hooson, Emlyn
Armstrong, Ernest Cryer, Bob Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)
Ashton, Joe Dalyell, Tam Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Davidson, Arthur Huckfield, Les
Atkinson, Norman Davies, Ifor (Gower) Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Bain, Mrs Margaret Deakins, Eric Hunter, Adam
Bates, Alf Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)
Beith, A. J. Dempsey, James Jay, Rt Hon Douglas
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Doig, Peter John, Brynmor
Blenkinsop, Arthur Dormand, J. D. Johnson, James (Hull West)
Boardman, H. Duffy, A. E. P. Johnson, Walter (Derby S)
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Dunn, James A. Johnston, Russell (Inverness)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) Jones, Alec (Rhondda)
Boyden, James (Bish Auck) Ewing, Harry (Stiring) Jones, Barry (East Flint)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. Judd, Frank
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Kaufman, Gerald
Buchan, Norman Flannery, Martin Kerr, Russell
Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Kilfedder, James
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Foot, Rt Hon Michael Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Campbell, Ian Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Lambie, David
Canavan, Dennis Garrett, John (Norwich S) Lamond, James
Cant, R. B. George, Bruce Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)
Cartwright, John Gilbert, Dr John Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Castle, Rt Hon Barbara Ginsburg, David Luard, Evan
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Golding, John Lyon, Alexander (York)
Cohen, Stanley Gould, Bryan Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson
Coleman, Donald Gourlay, Harry McCartney, Hugh
Colquhoun, Ms Maureen Grant, George (Morpeth) MacCormick, Iain
Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) Grant, John (Islington C) McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Grocott, Bruce Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor
Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Mackintosh, John P.
Crawford, Douglas Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Maclennan, Robert
Crawshaw, Richard Hatton, Frank McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)
Madden, Max Richardson, Miss Jo Tinn, James
Magee, Bryan Robinson, Geoffrey Torney, Tom
Mallalieu, J. P. W. Roderick, Caerwyn Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Marks, Kenneth Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Roper, John Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)
Mason, Rt Hon Roy Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Mellish, Rt Hon Robert Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) Ward, Michael
Mikardo, Ian Rowlands, Ted Watt, Hamish
Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Sedgemore, Brian Weetch, Ken
Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Sever, John Welsh, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin Sillars, James White, Frank R. (Bury)
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Silverman, Julius White, James (Pollok)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Skinner, Dennis Whitehead, Phillip
Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King Small, William Whitlock, William
Noble, Mike Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) Wigley, Dafydd
Oakes, Gordon Snape, Peter Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Ogden, Eric Spearing, Nigel Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Orbach, Maurice Spriggs, Leslie Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Stallard, A. W. Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
Padley, Walter Steel, Rt Hon David Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Palmer, Arthur Stewart, Rt Hon Donald Wise, Mrs Audrey
Pardoe, John Stott, Roger Woodall, Alec
Park, George Strang, Gavin Woof, Robert
Parker, John Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley Wrigglesworth, Ian
Pavitt, Laurie Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) Young, David (Bolton E)
Pendry, Tom Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Penhaligon, David Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Radice, Giles Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) Mr. Jim Marshall and Mr. Joseph Harper.
Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) Thompson, George
Reid, George Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
NOES
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) Mills, Peter
Arnold, Tom Goodhart, Philip Moate, Roger
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Goodhew, Victor Molyneaux, James
Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) Gorst, John Monro, Hector
Awdry, Daniel Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Moore, John (Croydon C)
Banks, Robert Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Morgan, Geraint
Bell, Ronald Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) Gray, Hamish Mudd, David
Benyon, W. Griffiths, Eldon Nelson, Anthony
Berry, Hon Anthony Grimond, Rt Hon J. Neubert, Michael
Biffen, John Grist, Ian Nott, John
Boscawen, Hon Robert Grylls, Michael Oppenheim, Mrs Sally
Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)
Braine, Sir Bernard Hampson, Dr Keith Page, Richard (Workington)
Brittan, Leon Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) Pattie, Geoffrey
Brocklebank-Fowler, C. Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Brooke, Peter Hawkins, Paul Prior, Rt Hon James
Brotherton, Michael Hodgson, Robin Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Holland, Philip Raison, Timothy
Bryan, Sir Paul Hunt, David (Wirral) Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)
Buchanan-Smilh, Alick Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Rhodes James, R.
Buck, Antony Hutchison, Michael Clark Ridley, Hon Nicholas
Budgen, Nick James, David Ridsdale, Julian
Chalker, Mrs Lynda Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) Rifkind, Malcolm
Channon, Paul Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Kershaw, Anthony Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Cockroft, John Kimball, Marcus Ross, William (Londonderry)
Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) King, Evelyn (South Dorset) Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)
Cope, John Kitson, Sir Timothy St. John-Stevas, Norman
Costain, A. P. Knox, David Shepherd, Colin
Dean, Paul (N Somerset) Lawson, Nigel Shersby, Michael
Dodsworth, Geoffrey Le Marchant, Spencer Silvester, Fred
Drayson, Burnaby Lester, Jim (Beeston) Sims, Roger
Dunlop, John Luce, Richard Sinclair, Sir George
Durant, Tony McCrindle, Robert Skeet, T. H. H.
Dykes, Hugh Macfarlane, Neil Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)
Eden, Rt Hon Sir John MacGregor, John Speed, Keith
Eyre, Reginald MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) Spence, John
Fairbairn, Nicholas MacMillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Fairgrieve, Russell McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) Sproat, Iain
Farr, John Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Stanbrook, Ivor
Finsberg, Geoffrey Marten, Neil Stokes, John
Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) Mather, Carol Stradling Thomas, J.
Fookes, Miss Janet Maude, Angus Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
Forman, Nigel Mawby, Ray Tebbit, Norman
Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret
Gardiner, George (Reigate) Mayhew, Patrick Wakeham, John
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) Meyer, Sir Anthony Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Wall, Patrick
Walters, Dennis Winterton, Nicholas TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Warren, Kenneth Wood, Rt Hon Richard Mr. Peter Morrison and
Weatherill, Bernard Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.
Wells, John Younger, Hon George
Division List No. 40 [See c. 1466]
Division No. 40] AYES [7.19 p.m.
Allaun, Frank Graham, Ted Palmer, Arthur
Anderson, Donald Grant, George (Morpeth) Pardoe, John
Armstrong, Ernest Grant, John (Islington C) Park, George
Ashton, Joe Grocott, Bruce Parker, John
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Harper, Joseph Pavitt, Laurie
Atkinson, Norman Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Pendry, Tom
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Hatton, Frank Penhaligon, David
Bates, Alf Heffer, Eric S Radice, Giles
Beith, A. J. Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Richardson, Miss Jo
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Huckfield, Les Robinson, Geoffrey
Boardman, H. Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) Roderick, Caerwyn
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Hunter, Adam Roper, John
Boyden, James (Bish Auck) Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Jay, Rt Hon Douglas Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) John, Brynmor Rowlands, Ted
Buchan, Norman Johnson, James (Hull West) Sandelson, Neville
Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) Johnson, Walter (Derby S) Sedgemore, Brian
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Sever, John
Campbell, Ian Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Silverman, Julius
Canavan, Dennis Jones, Barry (East Flint) Skinner, Dennis
Cant, R. B. Judd, Frank Small, William
Cartwright, John Kaufman, Gerald Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)
Castle, Rt Hon Barbara Kerr, Russell Snape, Peter
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Kilroy-Silk, Robert Spearing, Nigel
Cohen, Stanley Lambie, David Spriggs, Leslie
Coleman, Donald Lamond, James Stallard, A. W.
Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Steel, Rt Hon David
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Stott, Roger
Craigen. Jim (Maryhill) Luard, Evan Strang, Gavin
Crawshaw, Richard Lyon, Alexander (York) Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Cronin, John Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) McCartney, Hugh Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Cryer, Bob McDonald, Dr Oonagh Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
Dalyell, Tam Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
Davidson, Arthur Mackintosh, John P. Tinn, James
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Maclennan, Robert Torney, Tom
Deakins, Eric McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Madden, Max Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
Dempsey, James Magee, Bryan Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Doig, Peter Mallalieu, J. P. W. Ward, Michael
Dormand, J. D. Marks, Kenneth Weetch, Ken
Duffy, A. E. P. Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) White, Frank R. (Bury)
Dunn, James A. Mason, Rt Hon Roy White, James (Pollok)
Ewing, Harry (Stiring) Mellish, Rt Hon Robert Whitehead, Phillip
Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. Mikardo, Ian Whitlock, William
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Flannery, Martin Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Mitchell, Austin Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Wise, Mrs Audrey
Garrett, John (Norwich S) Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King Woof, Robert
George, Bruce Noble, Mike Wrigglesworth, Ian
Gilbert, Dr John Oakes, Gordon Young, David (Bolton E)
Ginsburg, David Ogden, Eric
Golding, John Orbach, Maurice TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Gould, Bryan Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Mr. Jim Marshall and
Gourlay, Harry Padley, Walter Mr. James Hamilton.
NOES
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Brittan, Leon Costain, A. P.
Arnold, Tom Brocklebank-Fowler, C. Crawford, Douglas
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Brooke, Peter Dean, Paul (N Somerset)
Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) Brotherton, Michael Dodsworth, Geoffrey
Awdry, Daniel Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Drayson, Burnaby
Bain, Mrs Margaret Bryan, Sir Paul Dunlop, John
Banks, Robert Buchanan-Smith, Alick Durant, Tony
Bell, Ronald Buck, Antony Dykes, Hugh
Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) Budgen, Nick Eden, Rt Hon Sir John
Benyon,W. Chalker, Mrs Lynda Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)
Berry, Hon Anthony Churchill, W. S. Eyre, Reginald
Biffen, John Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Fairbairn, Nicholas
Boscawen, Hon Robert Cockroft, John Fairgrieve, Russell
Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) Farr, John
Braine, Sir Bernard Cope, John Finsberg, Geoffrey
Fletcher. Alex (Edinburgh N) Macfarlane, Neil St. John-Stevas, Norman
Fookes, Miss Janet MacGregor, John Shepherd, Colin
Forman, Nigel MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) Shersby, Michael
Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) MacMillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Sillars, James
Gardiner, George (Reigate) McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) Silvester, Fred
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Sims, Roger
Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) Marten, Neil Sinclair, Sir George
Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) Mather, Carol Skeet, T. H. H.
Goodhart, Philip Maude, Angus Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)
Goodhew, Victor Mawby, Ray Speed, Keith
Gorst, John Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Spence, John
Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Mayhew, Patrick Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Meyer, Sir Anthony Sproat, Iain
Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Stainton, Keith
Gray, Hamish Mills, Peter Stanbrook, Ivor
Griffiths, Eldon Moate, Roger Stewart, Rt Hon Donald
Grist, Ian Molyneaux, James Stokes, John
Grylls, Michael Monro, Hector Stradling Thomas, J.
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Moore, John (Croydon C) Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
Hampson, Dr Keith Morgan, Geraint Tebbit, Norman
Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret
Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Hawkins, Paul Mudd, David Thompson, George
Henderson. Douglas Nelson, Anthony Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)
Hodgson, Robin Neubert, Michael Wakeham, John
Holland, Philip Nott, John Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Hunt, David (Wirral) Oppenheim, Mrs Sally Wall, Patrick
Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) Walters, Dennis
Hutchison, Michael Clark Page, Richard (Workington) Warren, Kenneth
James, David Pattie, Geoffrey Watt, Hamish
Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) Prentice, Rt Hon Reg Weatherill, Bernard
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Prior, Rt Hon James Wells, John
Kershaw, Anthony Pym, Rt Hon Francis Welsh, Andrew
Kilfedder, James Raison, Timothy Wigley, Dafydd
Kimball, Marcus Reid, George Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
King, Evelyn (South Dorset) Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) Winterton, Nicholas
Kitson, Sir Timothy Rhodes James, R. Wood, Rt Hon Richard
Knox, David Ridley, Hon Nicholas Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)
Lawson, Nigel Rifkind, Malcolm Younger, Hon George
Le Marchant, Spencer Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)
Luce, Richard Roberts, Wyn (Conway) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
MacCormick, Iain Ross, William (Londonderry) Lord James Douglas-Hamilton and Mr. Jim Lester.
McCrindle, Robert Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)
Division List No. 41 [See c. 1466]
Division No. 41] AYES [7.30 p.m.
Allaun, Frank Deakins, Eric Johnson, Walter (Derby S)
Anderson, Donald Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Johnston, Russell (Inverness)
Armstrong, Ernest Dempsey, James Jones, Alec (Rhondda)
Ashton, Joe Doig, Peter Jones, Barry (East Flint)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Dormand, J. D. Judd, Frank
Atkinson, Norman Duffy, A. E. P. Kaufman, Gerald
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Dunn, James A. Kerr, Russell
Bates, Alf Ewing, Harry (Stirling) Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Beith, A. J. Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. Lambie, David
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Flannery, Martin Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Boardman, H. Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Luard, Evan
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Foot, Rt Hon Michael Lyon, Alexander (York)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson
Boyden, James (Bish Auck) Garrett, John (Norwich S) McCartney, Hugh
Bray, Dr Jeremy George, Bruce McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Buchan, Norman Gilbert, Dr John MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor
Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) Ginsburg, David Mackintosh, John P.
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Golding, John Maclennan, Robert
Campbell, Ian Gould, Bryan McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)
Canavan, Dennis Gourlay, Harry Madden, Max
Cant, R. B. Graham, Ted Magee, Bryan
Cartwright, John Grant, George (Morpeth) Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Castle, Rt Hon Barbara Grant, John (Islington C) Marks, Kenneth
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Grocott, Bruce Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)
Cohen, Stanley Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Coleman, Donald Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Mason, Rt Hon Roy
Colquhoun, Ms Maureen Hatton, Frank Mellish, Rt Hon Robert
Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) Heffer, Eric S. Mikardo, Ian
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Hooson, Emlyn Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)
Crawshaw, Richard Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) Mitchell, Austin
Cronin, John Huckfield, Les Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Cryer, Bob Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King
Dalyell, Tam Hunter, Adam Noble, Mike
Davidson, Arthur Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) Oakes, Gordon
Davies. Ifor (Gower) John, Brynmor Ogden, Eric
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Johnson, James (Hull West) Orbach, Maurice
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Sedgemore, Brian Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
Padley, Walter Sever, John Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Palmer, Arthur Silverman, Julius Ward, Michael
Pardoe, John Skinner, Dennis Weetch, Ken
Park, George Small, William White, Frank R. (Bury)
Parker, John Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) White, James (Pollok)
Pavitt, Laurie Snape, Peter Whitehead, Phillip
Pendry, Tom Spearing, Nigel Whitlock, William
Penhaligon, David Spriggs, Leslie Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Radice, Giles Steel, Rt Hon David Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Richardson, Miss Jo Stott, Roger Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Strang, Gavin Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Robinson, Geoffrey Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley Wise, Mrs Audrey
Roderick, Caerwyn Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) Woof, Robert
Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) Wrigglesworth, Ian
Roper, John Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) Young, David (Bolton E)
Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) Tinn, James TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Rowlands, Ted Torney, Tom Mr. Joseph Harper and
Sandelson, Neville Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. Mr. A. W Stallard.
NOES
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Griffiths, Eldon Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Arnold, Tom Grist, Ian Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Grylls, Michael Reid, George
Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)
Awdry, Daniel Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) Rhodes James, R.
Banks, Robert Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Rifkind, Malcolm
Bell, Ronald Hawkins, Paul Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)
Benyon, W Henderson, Douglas Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Berry, Hon Anthony Hodgson, Robin Ross, William (Londonderry)
Biffen, John Holland, Philip Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)
Boscawen, Hon Robert Hunt, David (Wirral) Shersby, Michael
Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Sillars, James
Braine, Sir Bernard Hutchison, Michael Clark Silvester, Fred
Brittan, Leon Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W' df'd) Sims, Roger
Brocklebank-Fowler, C. Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Sinclair, Sir George
Brotherton, Michael Kilfedder, James Skeet, T. H. H.
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) King, Evelyn (South Dorset) Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Kitson, Sir Timothy Speed, Keith
Buck, Anthony Knox, David Spence, John
Budgen, Nick Le Marchant, Spencer Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Chalker, Mrs Lynda Lester, Jim (Beeston) Sproat, Iain
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) MacCormick, Iain Stainton, Keith
Cockroft, John McCrindle, Robert Stanbrook, Ivor
Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) MacGregor, John Stewart, Rt Hon Donald
Cope, John MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) Stokes, John
Dean, Paul (N Somerset) Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Stradling Thomas, J.
Dodsworth, Geoffrey McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Tebbit, Norman
Drayson, Burnaby Marten, Neil Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Dunlop, John Mather, Carol Thompson, George
Dykes, Hugh Mawby, Ray Wakeham, John
Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Mayhew, Patrick Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) Meyer, Sir Anthony Walters, Dennis
Eyre, Reginald Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Watt, Hamish
Fairgrieve, Russell Mills, Peter Weatherill, Bernard
Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) Moate, Roger Wells, John
Fookes, Miss Janet Molyneaux, James Welsh, Andrew
Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) Monro, Hector Wigley, Dafydd
Gardiner, George (Reigate) Moore, John (Croydon C) Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) Morgan, Geraint Wood, Rt Hon Richard
Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)
Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) Younger, Hon George
Goodhew, Victor Neubert, Michael
Gorst, John Oppenheim, Mrs Sally TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) Mrs. Margaret Bain and Mr. Douglas Crawford.
Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Page, Richard (Workington)
Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Pattie, Geoffrey
Division List No. 42 [See c.1466]
Division No. 42] AYES [7.41 p.m.
Allaun, Frank Boardman, H. Cartwright, John
Anderson, Donald Booth, Rt Hon Albert Castle, Rt Hon Barbara
Armstrong, Ernest Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)
Ashton, Joe Boyden, James (Bish Auck) Cohen, Stanley
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Bray, Dr Jeremy Coleman, Donald
Atkinson, Norman Buchan, Norman Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) Cox, Thomas (Tooting)
Bates, Alf Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Craigen, Jim (Maryhill)
Beith, A. J. Campbell, Ian Crawshaw, Richard
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Canavan, Dennis Cronin, John
Blenkinsop, Arthur Cant, R. B. Crowther, Stan (Rotherham)
Cryer, Bob Jones, Barry (East Flint) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Dalyell, Tam Judd, Frank Robinson, Geoffrey
Davidson, Arthur Kaufman, Gerald Roderick, Caerwyn
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Kerr, Russell Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Kilroy-Silk, Robert Roper, John
Deakins, Eric Lambie, David Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)
Dempsey, James Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Rowlands, Ted
Doig, Peter Luard, Evan Sandelson, Neville
Dormand, J. D. Lyon, Alexander (York) Sedgemore, Brian
Duffy, A. E. P. Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson Sever, John
Dunn, James A. McCartney, Hugh Silverman, Julius
Ewing, Harry (Stirling) McDonald, Dr Oonagh Skinner, Dennis
Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Small, William
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Mackintosh, John P. Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)
Flannery, Martin Maclennan, Robert Spearing, Nigel
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) Spriggs, Leslie
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Madden, Max Stallard, A. W.
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Magee, Bryan Steel, Rt Hon David
Garrett, John (Norwich S) Mallalieu, J. P. W. Stott, Roger
George, Bruce Marks, Kenneth Strang, Gavin
Gilbert, Dr John Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Ginsburg, David Mason, Rt Hon Roy Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
Golding, John Mellish, Rt Hon Robert Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Gould, Bryan Mikardo, Ian Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
Gourlay, Harry Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
Graham, Ted Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Tinn, James
Grant, George (Morpeth) Mitchell, Austin Torney, Tom
Grant, John (Islington C) Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Grocott, Bruce Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King Ward, Michael
Harper, Joseph Noble, Mike Weetch, Ken
Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Oakes, Gordon White, Frank R. (Bury)
Hatton, Frank Ogden, Eric White, James (Pollok)
Heffer, Eric S. Orbach, Maurice Whitehead, Phillip
Hooson, Emlyn Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Padley, Walter Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) Palmer, Arthur Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Huckfield, Les Pardoe, John Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) Park, George Wise, Mrs Audrey
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Parker, John Woof, Robert
Hunter, Adam Pavitt, Laurie Wrigglesworth, Ian
Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) Pendry, Tom Young, David (Bolton E)
John, Brynmor Penhaligon, David
Johnson, James (Hull West) Radice, Giles TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Johnson, Walter (Derby S) Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) Mr. Peter Snape and
Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Richardson, Miss Jo Mr. Jim Marshall.
Jones. Alec (Rhondda)
NOES
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) Moore, John (Croydon C)
Arnold, Tom Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) Morgan, Geraint
Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) Goodhew, Victor Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Awdry, Daniel Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Neubert, Michael
Banks, Robert Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)
Bell, Ronald Grist, Ian Page, Richard (Workington)
Benyon, W. Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Pattie, Geoffrey
Berry, Hon Anthony Hannam, John Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Boscawen, Hon Robert Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Reid, George
Braine, Sir Bernard Henderson, Douglas Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)
Brittan, Leon Hodgson, Robin Rhodes James, R.
Brotherton, Michael Holland, Philip Rifkind, Malcolm
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Hunt, David (Wirral) Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Hutchison, Michael Clark Ross, William (Londonderry)
Buck, Anthony Kilfedder, James Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)
Budgen, Nick Kitson, Sir Timothy Sillars, James
Chalker, Mrs Lynda Knox, David Silvester, Fred
Cockroft, John MacCormick, Iain Sims, Roger
Dodsworth, Geoffrey McCrindle, Robert Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) Sproat, Iain
Drayson, Burnaby Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Stewart, Rt Hon Donald
Dunlop, John McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
Dykes, Hugh Marten, Neil Tebbit, Norman
Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) Mawby, Ray Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Eyre, Reginald Mayhew, Patrick Thompson, George
Fairgrieve, Russell Meyer, Sir Anthony Wakeham, John
Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Fookes, Miss Janet Moate, Roger Walters, Dennis
Gardiner, George (Reigate) Molyneaux, James Warren, Kenneth
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) Monro, Hector Watt, Hamish
Weatherill, Bernard Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Wells, John Wood, Rt Hon Richard Mrs. Margaret Bain and Mr. Douglas Crawford.
Welsh, Andrew Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)
Wigley, Dafydd Younger, Hon George

10.15 p.m.

Mr. William Ross

I have heard most of the debate and I understand that it is on a fairly narrow matter. We are discussing an amendment. I do not know why I should always have to remind the Committee of its rules.

The Bill says that, in respect of the Scottish Development Agency, the Highland and Islands Development Board and certain other organisations, the Secretary of State shall, with the approval of the Treasury, prepare guidelines for their operations. The amendment would delete the word "guidelines" and put in "directions".

It is amazing that we have heard so many facets of the whole Scottish scene. There was an intellectual argument between my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan) and the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars). The best reply to the hon. Member for South Ayrshire was in a pamphlet called "Don't Butcher Scotland's Future" written by a Mr. James Sillars.

My hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) spoke about our being in a new, complex and difficult field. He said that we were making constitutions and that it would be easy to make mistakes. As far as guidelines are concerned, the SDA is working under guidelines now. Some people may think that they are too restrictive, but they should appreciate, on the basis of the arguments that they have put forward in the past, that we want to give the Assembly as much freedom as possible in relation to the SDA compatible with the integrity of the whole economy of the United Kingdom and justice to other parts of the United Kingdom which feel that Scotland is getting one step ahead.

It was the Scots who pioneered the idea of a development agency. Wales came later. We did so because we felt that there were special problems that required this special instrument. I have been sitting here preening myself. I never thought that I would hear the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) saying how good the SDA was and urging that we should concentrate more power within the SEPD. I remember what the Opposition did when we discussed this matter. They opposed the powers of the SDA and they had some help in Committee from the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford), the SNP representative, who joined the Tories to retain the cuts in the powers of the SDA that were made by another place.

Scottish National Party Members have very convenient memories. I have a very good memory, and I am determined to remind them of their faults and follies. especially when I hear them telling off the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) in respect of a vote. Let them beware of what Burns said: Gently scan your brother man". We know something about what guidelines mean. We are working successfully under the guidelines, and there has been praise for the SDA. There is no conflict and no confrontation at present. Certain Conservative Members are suggesting that we should go in for directions. We have some experience of direction, and we know that it is the demands that a Minister of the Crown should issue directions that really cause the trouble. It is an indication that things have gone wrong. If we are to proceed with constant crises and emergencies, we shall have constant confrontation.

Mr. Raison

The fact is that the Scottish Development Agency Act 1975 uses the phrase "give directions". That phrase is embodied in the whole of the Act.

Mr. Ross

The SDA also has guidelines, which were put in at the express wish of the Conservative Party and the House of Commons generally from the United Kingdom point of view. Where there are guidelines, as long as people keep within them they have full freedom of action, but once we have constant direction people do not know where they are and freedom goes.

The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Raison) should appreciate that by urging us to leave out guidelines and work only on the basis of directions he is asking for confrontation and trouble. I should have liked to go into some of the other matters that have been raised and the general arugment about the efficacy of the policies of the SNP and about how wonderful the SNP says everything would be. I remind Scottish National Party Members that it is very dangerous to deceive people into thinking that we can achieve miracles by some strange use of words. That was all we had from the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain).

We have something practical in the SDA. I have no doubt that it will grow and expand. I am glad that hon. Members have said that it has been useful. The SDA, working together with the SEDP, is using the powers that we gave it under Section 7 of the Industry Act and is working very successfully. We have seen things happening in Ayrshire, for example in Kilmarnock, Stewarton and Cumnock, and all round Scotland. That has been for the benefit of the local people, through the use of powers well within the guidelines. Let us stick to the guidelines.

Mr. Dalyell

My right hon. Friend was Secretary of State for Scotland for more than eight years. I ask him a question to which I genuinely do not know the answer. From his previous experience, does he think that there would be a problem about the double loyalty of civil servants to Assembly Ministers and to the Secretary of State and United Kingdom Ministers? I ask this because he has great experience.

Mr. Ross

My experience with civil servants—some of whom had been seconded to the Scottish Office from the Department of Industry when we took over the Section 7 powers—was that their loyalty was to the job they were doing and to working within guidelines that had been laid down. There was no conflict at all.

Mr. Pym

Whatever comments the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) may have made about the conduct of the debate, I have heard every word and can say that it has undeniably ranged very widely, covering practically the whole clause. That is hardly surprising, because the amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Raison) goes to the heart of the matter, singling out the words "prepare guidelines" and proposing alternative words. I wish to follow many of the matters that have been raised.

One very basic question is raised under the clause, namely, whether the new separate Scottish Administration that is to be created should have any regional powers. That is a very important question in the context of the Bill, because what is at risk is the unity of the United Kingdom economy and its possible fragmentation by different treatment being accorded to different parts of the United Kingdom. Such a possibility must cause grave anxiety, certainly in the Department of Employment and the Scottish Office and, I should think, everywhere in Scotland.

Industry, both north and south of the border, but especially north of the border, is clear as to the dangers. It has said on many occasions that it believes that any division of responsibility on the economic front between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom will lead to falling investment and put jobs at risk.

That is an extremely important matter because, as has been said many times, the unemployment problem in Scotland is more serious than it is in England or the rest of the United Kingdom.

Mr. Henderson

Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the important point which he is making suggests that the present system has not worked satisfactorily for Scotland and that it is high time we had a chance to do it ourselves and solve our own problems?

Mr. Pym

If we are to make a change, let us be sure that we make a change for the better, not for the worse. I think the Minister will agree that industrial interests in Scotland have made the position very clear. Naturally, I hope that he will take just as much notice of those representations as of every other representation which is made.

It is true that the Scottish Development Agency and the Highlands and Islands Development Board are uniquely Scottish bodies performing functions different from those of any other body or agency in the rest of the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, those functions are very much involved in the Scottish aspect of regional policy, and the importance of that cannot be exaggerated.

Once again, the dilemma here arises on account of the type of devolution proposed in the Bill—a mini-Parliament and its own Cabinet. It has been represented tonight from both sides of the Committee that conflict will arise. Indeed, the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars) spoke of a landmine of conflict developing on the economic front. I wish to add another aspect to that, because, if I have read the Bill aright, the appointment of members to the Scottish Development Agency will be done by the Assembly because the 1975 Act is a devolved matter under Schedule 11. Therefore, the Scottish Prime Minister will appoint the members and the United Kingdom Prime Minister, through the Secretary of State for Scotland, will lay down the guidelines. That seems to be something of a contradiction.

Such a division of responsibility on the economic front will in itself tend to lead, or mislead, people in Scotland to think that the Assembly will exercise some powerful or even decisive influence over economic policy and industrial growth. But it cannot and will not exercise that degree of influence, because the clause is intended to give the new Scottish Executive some element, but only some element, of influence, and I do not believe that this will please anyone.

The Government should transfer either a well-defined area of real responsibility on the economic front or none at all. I think that they might have had some encouragement from the Stormont experience to be more positive in their devolvement of economic responsibilities. However, the circumstances of Northern Ireland were and are different, so perhaps the comparison is not much help. In any case, the Scottish and English economies are much more integrated—that was the word used by the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan)—and much more interdependent than are the economies of Northern Ireland and Great Britain. The Scottish and English economies are treated as one and thought of as one, with the advantages of larger scale and greater diversity referred to just now by the Under-Secretary of State.

If there began to grow up a discrepancy between the treatment of industry in Scotland or the assistance given to industry in Scotland and that given, say, to the North-East of England, decisions about the location of industry would be affected, and that certainly has implications for jobs and new factories in Scotland.

Mr. Stokes

I am sure my right hon. Friend is aware that in the heart of the industrial Midlands and the workshop of England there is already, before the Bill is passed, great feeling that so much work has been taken from the Midlands and placed in Scotland in order to favour the Labour Party, the hope being that votes will be gathered thereby.

10.30 p.m.

Mr. Pym

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. Even with a partial handover such as is proposed in the Bill, a partial handover of responsibility on the economic front will not be to Scotland's advantage. As almost all the information most clearly indicates, the economic benefit to Scotland of the Union of the United Kingdom is greater than to Wales or England. It would be most serious if that were to be put at risk. We know, for instance, that the people of Scotland pay less tax. In so far as that is a reflection of their lesser degree of prosperity it is to be regretted, but we know that the percentage of public expenditure per head of population is higher in Scotland than in England.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) recently asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the percentages and was told that public expenditure per head in Scotland financed from Votes exceeded that in England in 1975–76 by about 25 or 30 per cent., which is a large difference. As recently as 1974–75, Scotland received £146 million out of the £473 million granted for regional aid, which was a substantial proportion. It means that the assistance to industry per head of employees in the assisted areas was £68 in Scotland compared with £37 in England, or nearly double.

Mr. Henderson

rose

Mr. Pym

No I have given way already to the hon. Gentleman. I am making an important point about the share of the grant received by Scotland which is made available to help regional policy.

We also know that in the 1960s about 70,000 to 80,000 extra jobs were created due to the action of the Labour Government. A similar number of jobs flowed to Scotland as a result of action taken by the Conservative Administration 1970. To some extent that accounts for what my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Mr. Stokes) was saying.

In Scotland the political scene is much judged by the unemployment figures and the policies that are available. Due to the centralisation of policy over the regions and the United Kingdom economy, Scotland has benefited to a considerable extent. Therefore, we are dealing in the clause with the economic life of Scotland and the livelihood of every family in Scotland.

Mr. Sillars

If we have benefited to such a great extent, why is it that unemployment, which used to be about 50,000 in 1951, is approaching 200,000 in 1977–78?

Mr. Pym

The short answer is that there has been a Labour Government for three and a half years.

In this context, it is dangerous to talk of preparing guidelines to divide responsibility for regional aid. It will be done as proposed in the Bill under the aegis of the Secretary of State, who will become an emaciated figure if the Bill becomes an Act. To begin with, he will have to get approval from the Treasury. The Secretary of State's power base in the Cabinet will vanish if the Bill is enacted. He will have no authority worth calling the name. He might as well hand over responsibility to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the first place. If he survives if the Bill becomes an Act, he will be something of a eunuch, which is not the sort of character much respected in Scotland.

It is clear that the Executive and the Assembly could not extend or alter the functions of the SDA. It will merely be another set of politicians and civil servants interfering in commerce and industry. There is too much interference already. This is a good example of the extra tier of government argument. It will impose more forms of more meddling, which is inimical to prosperity.

I want to raise some of the problems of the guidelines and the proposals for having them. The existing guidelines run to 12 pages. What do the Government have in mind by way of division? I do not think that it will be easy. The existing guidelines cover such matters as the importance of job creation, the needs of the rural economy, regard for profitability, opportunities to take over companies without their agreement and a whole range of other matters. How are the guidelines to be constructed so that the Assembly will know how to act? If they are too detailed, it will hardly be devolution because it will be giving responsibility with one hand and taking it away with the other. If the guidelines are not detailed, why bother to have them at all?

Mr. Crawford

rose

Mr. Pym

No, I cannot give way. We have had three and a half hours already. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to proceed.

Mr. Crawford

Scared.

Mr. Pym

The hon. Gentleman has made his speech.

What is the status of the guidelines? What does subsection (4) mean when it states: A Scottish Secretary shall exercise the powers with respect to which guidelines are prepared under this section so as to give effect to the guidelines."? What happens if the Scottish Secretary does not act in that manner? This point was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Sproat). Who decides whether the Scottish Secretary has acted in that way? The Scottish Development Agency will have two masters. Will it not play one off against the other? It could perfectly well challenge the Scottish Secretary and maintain that he was not acting in accordance with the guidelines, or that he was going beyond them. What does the SDA do—appeal to the eunuch or to the Scottish Prime Minister? How is this to work?

Is it sensible to transfer some responsibility and then try to control the exercise of that responsibility? What happens if a Labour Secretary of State tries to direct a Tory Scottish Secretary to take an equity holding in a firm or to take over a firm such as Fairey? That is an unimaginable nightmare of a situation, but it could happen. I only hope that I can be there to hear the reply by the Tory Scottish Secretary.

We feel that the clause is a nonsensical compromise. There is no justification for the middle course of transferring to Treasury control some part of regional policy. It is a half-way house that will not work. It will cause conflict, difficulty and differences. If the Government wanted a devolved SDA or Highlands and Islands Development Board, why did they not do that? Or did the Government not dare to do it? Do they want to retain control in Whitehall? Do they think that by retaining control themselves while appearing to give it away to the Assembly they will have more influence and control over the Labour Party's fortunes in Scotland?

We should not forget what is really at the bottom of the Bill. It is not designed to help the people of Scotland or to improve the Government there. It is au fond designed to help the Labour Party in Scotland. In this clause the Government are entering a dangerous area of direct concern to the families of Scotland who at the moment enjoy an undue proportion of assistance from the United Kingdom economy. We want to be satisfied that the Government have thought all these matters through. We fear that they have not done so, because the possible division of the control of the United Kingdom economy would be a grievous blow to Scotland and would in no sense be in the interests of anybody in Scotland.

Dr. M. S. Miller (East Kilbride)

I hope that under the clause we shall have the guidelines set out. [Interruption.] I do not know whether the hon. Member is referring to me.

Mr. Sproat

We want to hear the Minister. The hon. Member has not even been here.

The Second Deputy Chairman

Order. Observations from a sedentary position are deprecated.

Dr. Miller

I would not be happy if the SDA were constricted and restricted by any Government directives. I have cause to be grateful and thankful to the SDA in my constituency. In the Blantyre part of the constituency, the SDA is going ahead with developments which will be of great benefit to an area of high unemployment. It may interest the SNP to know that the area in my constituency with the highest unemployment is the area which gave that party a trouncing in the May elections. Therefore, SNP Members should note that the slogans and words which the SNP uses to try to con and gull the people, to show that everything in the garden will be rosy if only the SNP is returned to power, fall on deaf ears among the working people of Scotland.

Mrs. Winifred Ewing

We shall see.

Dr. Miller

Yes, we shall see. I am not complacent about unemployment in Scotland. It is a disaster. Unemployment is high and is growing in every industrialised country in the world. Scotland and England are not exceptions.

What would happen to employment if the SNP achieved power in Scotland? In the new town of East Kilbride, 75 per cent. of the jobs are supplied by United Kingdom or multinational firms. A large proportion of them would disappear if that party came to power.

Mr. Henderson

Name them.

Dr. Miller

Members of the SNP know what I am talking about.

Mr. Henderson

Name them.

Dr. Miller

I know what I am talking about.

Mr. Henderson

Name them.

The Second Deputy Chairman

Order. I remind the hon. Member, as I reminded another hon. Member a few minutes ago, that observations from a sedentary position are deprecated.

Mr. Henderson

I spoke only because the hon. Member for East Kilbride (Dr. Miller) refused to give way and answer a reasonable question.

The Second Deputy Chairman

Giving way is entirely a matter for the hon. Member who is speaking.

Dr. Miller

I want the Bill to go through. I firmly believe in the good that the Bill will do. I want this clause, with its stress on the Scottish Development Agency continuing its work to benefit areas in need and to bring down unemployment. I believe that that is what the SDA will do.

Mr. John Smith

The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Raison) who moved the amendment, dealt with the fairly narrow issue of "directions" as opposed to "guidelines". Since then the debate has ranged widely over the whole clause. I shall seek to answer questions about both the narrow and the wide issues.

I was surprised that the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym) raised the question of what happens if the Scottish Assembly does not follow the directions of the Secretary of State. As I told the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Sproat), the remedy for the United Kingdom Government is the use of Clause 37 of the Bill. But the Conservative Party voted against that clause. They also voted against Clauses 36 and 38. A synthetic fuss was made about the Division on a point of order.

The Conservative Party cannot escape its responsibility. Its Members voted against very important clauses which preserve the legitimate rights of the United Kingdom Government.

Mr. Pym

We did not have time to debate those clauses.

Mr. Smith

We did not reach the clauses because of the time that was taken discussing other clauses. It does not escape my notice that it might suit some hon. Members not to discuss clauses so that they can draw attention to that elsewhere. The Conservatives voted with the SNP against the interests of the United Kingdom. Now, on the very amendment on which they are asking the questions about how we secure the interests of the United Kingdom, I have to refer them back to the clauses they voted against. I do not know whether their behaviour is good politics, but it does not make sense to me.

10.45 p.m.

Mr. Crawford

The right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym) said that the Tories had reasons why they voted against Clauses 36, 37 and 38, but when I asked him why, he could not answer.

Mr. Smith

They will have an opportunity to explain throughout this Committee stage. I shall ask them often to explain.

But now I must return to the specific question as to why statutory guidelines are more appropriate than directions given by the Secretary of State. My hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Dr. Bray) has already put the reasons extremely well in his lucid speech. What we require is to formulate a code of practice designed to protect the interests of the other parts of the United Kingdom, not a power to decree a series of tightly-drafted specific requirements related to individual decisions, which would be the result of a series of directions.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) reminded us, there are guidelines in practice at the moment. We believe that for the Secretary of State to issue directions to a Scottish Secretary would involve a detailed control over the latter's performance of his functions, and that would not be in tune with the general policy of the Bill. We have guidelines already. We have guidelines in operation in relation to the National Enterprise Board and the Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies. The right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire asked me, quite reasonably, what would be the content of the guidelines. Those that the Secretary of State will issue will follow closely the guidelines under which the SDA operates now. It is not a specially complicated or difficult matter.

I accept that there is a common United Kingdom Government involvement at the moment, and that there is to be a transfer of considerable responsibility for the Agency to the Scottish Executive, but these guidelines work satisfactorily and are much preferable to specific directions by the Secretary of State on a whole series of individual matters.

I was intrigued by the speech of the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro), who praised the operations of the SDA and seemed to me perhaps to be stumbling along the road to Socialism a little more than he intended by advocating increased powers for the Scottish Economic Planning Department. We have decentralised a number of responsibilities to that Department, but it will not be devolved. We are not in the business of devolving regional and industrial policy. We believe that that policy is best handled on a United Kingdom basis by the United Kingdom Government and the United Kingdom Parliament.

I was asked why we had decided to devolve the SDA wholly. We did so after a very great deal of consideration. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire gave the answer himself by saying that it is a uniquely Scottish body. It operates wholly within Scotland. In the November 1975 White Paper, we proposed to devolve the environmental responsibilities of the SDA but not its industrial responsibilities, but it seemed to us on reflection to make more sense to give the Assembly and the Executive control over the Agency as a whole. But they do not have legislative responsibility for it.

Why do we have the concept of guidelines at all? It is important to observe fairness and equity among the regional industrial policies of the United Kingdom. It would not be fair to allow the SDA to give soft loans or extra incentives to firms in Scotland which were not available in the North-East of England, for example. This is consistent with our view that devolution will strengthen the unity of the United Kingdom. I believe that profoundly—and I emphasise it to Opposition Members who keep fighting the Bill at every stage because they believe that it will harm the unity of the United Kingdom. However, I think that this indication—[Interruption] If the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South will stop voting against clauses which preserve the interests of the United Kingdom, I shall then take lectures from him on this subject.

However, it is necessary in our view to have regional and industrial policy dealt with on a United Kingdom basis.

Mr. Russell Johnston

Given that I do not entirely disagree with what the Minister says, may I ask him to explain why the Highlands and Islands Development Board, operating within the budget allowed to it, should not be permitted to vary the kind of incentives that it uses in that area? I should have thought that it could hardly be argued that this would topple the whole United Kingdom economy.

Mr. Smith

It might not topple the whole United Kingdom economy. I take the hon. Gentleman's point that the Highlands and Islands Development Board operates in one defined area of Scotland, not the whole of Scotland. It covers the area specified by the former crofting counties, although the area has been changed from time to time. There is a point that even within Scotland, though, if one allows one particular agency to offer a better set of incentives than those offered by another, some difficulties would arise. That would be a problem, perhaps, between the central belt and the Highlands, rather than, say, between a Scottish company and an English company, concerning the SDA's operations.

We thought very carefully about these matters but we came to the conclusion that it was wiser to have a common set of rules for both the HIDB and the SDA. The hon. Gentleman has made the point forcefully to me on a number of occasions that he thought that the case concerning the HIDB was much less convincing than it was for the SDA.

My hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) asked about new towns and their relationship with the Treasury, as he saw it. There will be no direct relationship with the Treasury or the Government as far as this is concerned. It will be solely with the Scottish Administration. There are guidelines on the disposal of industrial land, as my hon. Friend will see from the terms of the clause, to ensure that, when they dispose of land or industrial buildings, this will be on the same terms as in comparable areas elsewhere. That is really what that part of the clause is about.

The hon. Member for Dumfries asked me about control of finance on the operations of the SDA. At least, that was what I understood him to be asking me about. He asked whether it would be done over the life of a Parliament or from month to month or year to year. There will be no separate United Kingdom control over the finance of the SDA, either for a Parliament as a whole or for shorter periods. All the funds made available for devolved purposes will be part of the annual block fund, and it will be for the devolved Administration to decide how much of their resources goes to the SDA. They will have an opportunity to decide how much of their resources will be allocated to the SDA.

The importance of the guidelines is that they will operate so that the SDA will not be able to offer a more attractive set of incentives, as it were, to industry in. Scotland than the incentives offered in England in the North-East or the North-West. I think that that is a very sensible thing to decide.

I think that we are absolutely right in not devolving regional or industrial development policy, but when we have a body such as the SDA, which has an important role, the Assembly will have a role so far as its environmental functions are concerned, in a legislative sense. Where it is operating entirely within Scotland, staffed by Scottish people and with a very good board drawn from very representative sections of Scottish life, it seems to us to make sense that the day-to-day administration and control of that body should be given to the Assembly and the Scottish Administration.

I found it curious that the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire was saying that he thought there was a case for greater industrial devolution.

Mr. Pym

What I said was that I thought that the half-way house position chosen by the Government in the clause was not satisfactory and that there was a case for saying that we should go further and devolve some real powers, if that was what the Government wanted to do, or not devolve any at all.

Mr. Smith

It is difficult to understand the right hon. Gentleman. On the one hand he says that he thinks that there is a case for greater industrial devolution, and on the other hand he says that there is a case for no industrial devolution. Of which one of those attractive possibilities is he in favour?

Mr. Pym

At this hour the Minister must be very tired. He, too, has been listening to the whole debate. I made it perfectly clear that I thought that these matters ought not to be devolved.

Mr. Smith

In that case, it seems odd that the right hon. Gentleman should be saying anything about the case for more industrial devolution. In his famous speech at St. Andrews he proposed devolution of neither a legislative nor an executive kind. One wonders what other form of devolution there is. But that is the devolution to which the Conservative Party is committed in principle. There was no mention of any economic devolution there. The Conservative proposals are so half-hearted and feeble that they do not involve devolution at all.

For once I commend the persistence of my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian. A great deal of it is directed to me, but some of it is directed at the Opposition Front Bench, and one day he may receive an answer. He is entitled to keep pressing, because he has received nothing remotely like an answer yet.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars) made an interesting speech, but he is operating on a different political principle from that of the Government. As far as I can see, he has accepted the argument for a separate State. In that sense he is, in effect, a nationalist. I know that he has differences of opinion with the SNP, but he does not seem to have many on that point. Perhaps I have got him wrong.

Mr. Sillars

My hon. Friend is aware, because we have talked about this matter elsewhere, that I am speaking within the context of the EEC, because I do not believe that any part of the United Kingdom is coming out of the Community. This is not a semantic difference between me and the SNP.

Mr. Smith

My hon. Friend would want to keep for Scotland the same status as the Republic of Ireland, which is an independent State. If we changed Scotland's constitution to one like that of the Republic of Ireland, we should be creating an independent State. People who argue for an independent State will not wish there to be controls. I understand that the SNP, because it is nationalist, will oppose some of these provisions. I am not a nationalist, and the Government are not putting forward nationalist proposals.

We are seeking to give more autonomy, more control over Scottish affairs, to a Scottish Assembly directly elected by the Scottish people but within the firm framework of the continuing unity of the United Kingdom. My hon. Friend does not favour that commitment to continuing political and economic unity, which is very much at the heart of our proposals. Therefore, we part company on that matter. I suppose that Opposition Members are sincere in wanting to preserve the unity of the United Kingdom, but with their total lack of sensitivity to the feelings of people in Scotland who want more control over aspects of their own affairs which can legitimately be dealt with in Scotland they are failing to serve the cause of unity.

When we deal with such matters as the SDA we must put into the Bill provisions that are carefully thought out. Hon. Members have noticed the complicated provisions. They hang together. We have here an important measure of devolution, but at the same time we have had close regard to the interests of other parts of the United Kingdom. My hon. Friends who represent constituencies in the North of England and other parts would legitimately ask searching questions if we did not have these protections in the Bill for the interests of all other parts of the United Kingdom.

I do not know what the Conservatives propose to do if there is a vote on the Question "That the clause stand part of the Bill", because it contains important protections for the unity of the United Kingdom. I hope that we shall not see a repeat of their irresponsibility on Clauses 36, 37 and 38. If they decide to vote against Clause 39. their claim to represent the interests of the United Kingdom will be in total tatters.

I shall watch with very great interest what happens on the Question "That the clause stand part of the Bill". The amendment is probably more of a probing nature than of any other kind, and I shall understand if there is not a vote on

Division No. 43] AYES [11.00 p.m.
Allaun, Frank Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) Grant, George (Morpeth)
Anderson, Donald Cryer, Bob Grant, John (Islington C)
Armstrong, Ernest Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Dalyell, Tam Hatton, Frank
Atkinson, Norman Davidson, Arthur Hooson, Emlyn
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)
Bates, Alf Deakins, Eric Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)
Beith, A. J. Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Huckfield, Les
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Doig, Peter Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Dormand, J. D. Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Boardman, H. Duffy, A. E. P. Hunter, Adam
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Dunn, James A. Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) John, Brynmor
Bray, Dr Jeremy Ennals, Rt Hon David Johnson, James (Hull West)
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Ewing, Harry (Stirling) Johnson, Walter (Derby S)
Buchan, Norman Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. Johnston, Russell (Inverness)
Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Jones, Alec (Rhondda)
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Flannery, Martin Jones, Barry (East Flint)
Campbell, Ian Foot, Rt Hon Michael Judd, Frank
Cant, R. B. Ford, Ben Kaufman, Gerald
Cartwright, John Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Kerr, Russell
Castle, Rt Hon Barbara Garrett, John (Norwich S) Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Lambie, David
Cohen, Stanley George, Bruce Lemond, James
Coleman, Donald Gilbert, Dr John Latham, Arthur (Paddington)
Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) Ginsburg, David Leadbitter, Ted
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Golding, John Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)
Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) Gould, Bryan Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Crawshaw, Richard Gourlay, Harry Luard, Evan
Cronin, John Graham, Ted Lyon, Alexander (York)

that. If, however, there is a vote on the Question "That the clause stand part of the Bill" we shall see whether the Conservative Party is more interested in trying to get cheap victories over the Government in the House of Commons than in protecting the interests of the United Kingdom.

Today must have been one of the most foolish in the history of the Conservative Party in the House of Commons—and that is saying something—because it decided, I do not know whether in pique or otherwise, to vote against some important clauses. Conservative Members have an opportunity on Clause 39 to save a little of their self-respect by not voting against it. I fear myself that they might succumb to the temptation simply to vote against anything—

It being Eleven o'clock, The CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order [16th November] and the Resolution [22nd November], to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.

Amendment negatived.

The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at Eleven o'clock.

Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 168, Noes 163.

Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson Penhaligon, Davis Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
McCartney, Hugh Radice, Giles Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
Maclennan, Robert Richardson, Miss Jo Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Tinn, James
Madden, Max Robinson, Geoffrey Torney, Tom
Magee, Bryan Roderick, Caerwyn Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Mallalieu, J. P. W. Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
Marks, Kenneth Roper, John Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Ward, Michael
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) Watkins, David
Mendelson, John Rowlands, Ted Weetch, Ken
Mikardo, Ian Sandelson, Neville White, Frank R. (Bury)
Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Sedgemore, Brian White, James (Pollok)
Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Sever, John Whitehead, Phillip
Mitchell, Austin Silverman, Julius Whitlock, William
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Skinner, Dennis Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Small, William Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Noble, Mike Snape, Peter Wise, Mrs Audrey
Oakes, Gordon Spearing, Nigel Woof, Robert
Ogden, Eric Spriggs, Leslie Wrigglesworth, Ian
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Stallard, A. W. Young, David (Bolton E)
Palmer, Arthur Steel, Rt Hon David
Pardoe, John Stott, Roger TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Park, George Strang, Gavin Mr. Joseph Harper and
Pavitt, Laurie Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley Mr. James Hamilton.
Pendry, Tom
NOES
Arnold, Tom Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) Moore, John (Croydon C)
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) Morgan, Geraint
Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) Goodhart, Philip Morrison, Charles (Devizes)
Awdry, Daniel Goodhew, Victor Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)
Bain, Mrs Margaret Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Mudd, David
Banks, Robert Gower, Sir Raymond (Ba[...]) Nelson, Anthony
Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Neubert, Michael
Benyon, W. Griffiths, Eldon Nott, John
Berry, Hon Anthony Grist, Ian Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)
Biffen, John Grylls, Michael Pattie, Geoffrey
Boscawen, Hon Robert Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Percival, Ian
Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) Hannam, John Prentice, Rt Hon Reg
Braine, Sir Bernard Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) Price, David (Eastleigh)
Brittan, Leon Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Brocklebank-Fowler, C. Hawkins, Paul Raison, Timothy
Brooke, Peter Henderson, Douglas Reid, George
Brotherton, Michael Hodgson, Robin Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Holland, Philip Rhodes James, R.
Bryan, Sir Paul Hunt, David (Wirral) Ridley, Hon Nicholas
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Rifkind, Malcolm
Buck, Anthony Hutchison, Michael Clark Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)
Budgen, Nick James, David Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) Ross, William (Londonderry)
Canavan, Dennis Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)
Chalker, Mrs Lynda Kershaw, Anthony Shersby, Michael
Churchill, W. S. King, Evelyn (South Dorset) Sillars, James
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) King, Tom (Bridgwater) Silvester, Fred
Cockroft, John Kilson, Sir Timothy Sims, Roger
Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) Knox, David Sinclair, Sir George
Cope, John Lawson, Nigel Skeet, T. H. H.
Costain, A. P. Le Marchant, Spencer Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)
Crawford, Douglas Luce, Richard Speed, Keith
Dean, Paul (N Somerset) McCrindle, Robert Spence, John
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Macfarlane, Neil Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Drayson, Burnaby MacGregor, John Sproat, Iain
Dunlop, John MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) Stainton, Keith
Durant, Tony Mackintosh, John P. Stanbrook, Ivor
Dykes, Hugh Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Stewart, Rt Hon Donald
Eden, Rt Hon Sir John McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) Stokes, John
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Stradling Thomas, J.
Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) Marten, Neil Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray) Mather, Carol Tebbit, Norman
Eyre, Reginald Mawby, Ray Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Fairbairn, Nicholas Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Thompson, George
Fairgrieve, Russell Mayhew, Patrick Wakeham, John
Farr, John Meyer, Sir Anthony Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Finsberg, Geoffrey Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)
Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) Mills, Peter Wall, Patrick
Forman, Nigel Miscampbell, Norman Walters, Dennis
Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) Moate, Roger Warren, Kenneth
Gardiner, George (Reigate) Molyneaux, James Watt, Hamish
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) Monro, Hector Weatherill, Bernard
Wells, John Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Welsh, Andrew Winterton, Nicholas Sir. George Young and Mr. Jim Lester
Wiggin, Jerry Wood, Rt Hon Richard
Wigley, Dafydd Younger, Hon George

Question accordingly agreed to.

Clause 39 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 7 agreed to.

Division No. 44] AYES [11.15 p.m.
Anderson, Donald Gould, Bryan Palmer, Arthur
Armstrong, Ernest Gourlay, Harry Park, George
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Graham, Ted Pavitt, Laurie
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Grant, George (Morpeth) Pendry, Tom
Bates, Alf Grant, John (Islington C) Penhaligon, David
Beith, A. J. Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Radice, Giles
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Hatton, Frank Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Hooson, Emlyn Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Boardman, H. Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Robinson, Geoffrey
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Huckfield, Les Roderick, Caerwyn
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) Roper, John
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Hunter. Adam Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Buchan, Norman Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)
Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) John, Brynmor Rowlands, Ted
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Johnson, James (Hull West) Sandelson, Neville
Campbell, Ian Johnson, Walter (Derby S) Sedgemore, Brian
Cant, R. B. Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Sever, John
Cartwright, John Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Silverman, Julius
Castle, Rt Hon Barbara Jones, Barry (East Flint) Small, William
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Judd, Frank Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)
Cohen, Stanley Kaufman, Gerald Snape, Peter
Coleman, Donald Kerr, Russell Spearing, Nigel
Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) Kilroy-Silk, Robert Spriggs, Leslie
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Lambie, David Stallard, A. W.
Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) Lamond, James Steel, Rt Hon David
Crawshaw, Richard Leadbitter, Ted Stott, Roger
Cronin, John Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Strang, Gavin
Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Cryer, Bob Luard, Evan Taylor. Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) Lyon, Alexander (York) Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Dalyell, Tam Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)
Davidson, Arthur McCartney, Hugh Tinn, James
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Torney, Tom
Deakins, Eric Mackintosh, John P. Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Maclennan, Robert Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
Dolg, Peter McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Dormand, J. D. Madden, Max Ward, Michael
Duffy, A. E. P. Magee, Bryan Watkins, David
Dunn, James A. Mallalieu, J. P. W. Weetch, Ken
Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) Marks, Kenneth White, Frank R. (Bury)
Ennals, Rt Hon David Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) White, James (Pollok)
Ewing, Harry (Stirling) Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) Whitehead, Phillip
Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. Mendelson, John Whitlock, William
Fitch, Alan (Wigan) Mikardo, Ian Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Flannery, Martin Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Ford, Ben Mitchell, Austin Woof, Robert
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Wrigglesworth, Ian
Garrett, John (Norwich S) Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Young, David (Bolton E)
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King
George, Bruce Noble, Mike TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Gilbert, Dr John Oakes, Gordon Mr. Joseph Harper and
Ginsburg, David Ogden, Eric Mr. James Hamilton.
Golding, John Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
NOES
Arnold, Tom Banks, Robert Boscawen, Hon Robert
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)
Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) Benyon, W. Braine, Sir Bernard
Awdry, Daniel Berry, Hon Anthony Brittan, Leon
Bain, Mrs Margaret Biffen, John Brooke, Peter
  1. Clause 40
    1. cc1558-9
    2. NATIONAL PAY POLICY 545 words, 1 division
  2. Clause 41
    1. cc1559-62
    2. MINISTER'S CONSENT TO TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE OF CERTAIN PERSONS 770 words, 2 divisions
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