| Division List No. 38 [See c. 1465] | ||
| Division No. 38] | AYES | [6.54 p.m. |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Goodlad, Alastair | Mudd, David |
| Arnold, Tom | Gorst, John | Nelson, Anthony |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Neubert, Michael |
| Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Nott, John |
| Awdry, Daniel | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Oppenheim, Mrs Sally |
| Banks, Robert | Gray, Hamish | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Bell, Ronald | Griffiths, Eldon | Page, Richard (Workington) |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Grist, Ian | Parkinson, Cecil |
| Benyon, W. | Grylls, Michael | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Biffen, John | Hall, Sir John | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Prior, Rt Hon James |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Hampson, Dr Keith | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Raison, Timothy |
| Brittan, Leon | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Hawkins, Paul | Rhodes James, R. |
| Brooke, Peter | Hodgson, Robin | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Brotherton, Michael | Holland, Philip | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Buck, Antony | James, David | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Budgen, Nick | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Channon, Paul | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Shepherd, Colin |
| Churchill, W. S. | Kershaw, Anthony | Shersby, Michael |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | King, Evelyn (South Dorset) | Silvester, Fred |
| Cockroft, John | Kitson, Sir Timothy | Sims, Roger |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Knox, David | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Cope, John | Lawson, Nigel | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Costain, A. P. | Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield) |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Luce, Richard | Speed, Keith |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | McCrindle, Robert | Spence, John |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Macfarlane, Neil | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Drayson, Burnaby | MacGregor, John | Sproat, Iain |
| Dunlop, John | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) | Stainton, Keith |
| Durant, Tony | MacMillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Dykes, Hugh | McNair-Wilson. P. (New Forest) | Stokes, John |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Eyre, Reginald | Marten, Neil | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Mather, Carol | Tebbit, Norman |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | Maude, Angus | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Farr, John | Mawby, Ray | Wakeham, John |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Wall, Patrick |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | Mayhew, Patrick | Walters, Dennis |
| Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Warren, Kenneth |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Forman, Nigel | Mills, Peter | Wells, John |
| Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | Moate, Roger | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) | Molyneaux, James | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Monro, Hector | Younger, Hon George |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Moore, John (Croydon C) | |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Morgan, Geraint | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Mr. Spencer le Marchant and Mr. Anthony Berry. |
| Goodhew, Victor | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) |
| NOES | ||
| Allaun, Frank | Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Davies, Ifor (Gower) |
| Anderson, Donald | Campbell, Ian | Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Canavan, Dennis | Deakins, Eric |
| Ashley, Jack | Cant, R. B. | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) |
| Ashton, Joe | Carmichael, Neil | Dempsey, James |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Cartwright, John | Doig, Peter |
| Atkinson, Norman | Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Dormand, J. D. |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Duffy, A. E. P. |
| Bain, Mrs Margaret | Cohen, Stanley | Dunn, James A. |
| Bates, Alf | Coleman, Donald | Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) |
| Beith, A. J. | Colquhoun, Ms Maureen | Ewing, Harry (Stiring) |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) |
| Boardman, H. | Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Flannery, Martin |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Crawford, Douglas | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Crawshaw, Richard | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Cronin, John | Ford, Ben |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Cryer, Bob | Garrett, John (Norwich S) |
| Buchan, Norman | Dalyell, Tam | George, Bruce |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Davidson, Arthur | Gilbert, Dr John |
| Ginsburg, David | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Golding, John | Madden, Max | Small, William |
| Gould, Bryan | Magee, Bryan | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Snape, Peter |
| Graham, Ted | Marks, Kenneth | Spearing, Nigel |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Grocott, Bruce | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walte. | Mikardo, Ian | Stott, Roger |
| Hatton, Frank | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Strang, Gavin |
| Henderson, Douglas | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Hooson, Emlyn | Mitchell, Austin | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Huckfield, Les | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Noble, Mike | Thompson, George |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Oakes, Gordon | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Hunter, Adam | Ogden, Eric | Tinn, James |
| Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) | Orbach, Maurice | Torney, Tom |
| Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Padley, Walter | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Palmer, Arthur | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| John, Brynmor | Pardoe, John | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Johnson, James (Hull West) | Park, George | Ward, Michael |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Parker, John | Watt, Hamish |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Pavitt, Laurie | Weetch, Ken |
| Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Pendry, Tom | Welsh, Andrew |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Penhaligon, David | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Judd, Frank | Radice, Giles | While, James (Pollok) |
| Kaufman, Gerald | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Kerr, Russell | Reid, George | Whitlock, William |
| Kilfedder, James | Richardson, Miss Jo | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Lambie, David | Robinson, Geoffrey | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) |
| Lamond, James | Roderick, Caerwyn | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Rooker, J. W. | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Luard, Evan | Roper, John | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Lyon, Alexander (York) | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Woodall, Alec |
| Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Woof, Robert |
| McCartney, Hugh | Rowlands, Ted | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| MacCormick, Iain | Sandelson, Neville | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Sedgemore, Brian | |
| Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Sever, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mackintosh, John P. | Sillars, James | Mr. James Hamilton and Mr. Joseph Harper. |
| Maclennan, Robert | Silverman, Julius |
| Division List No. 39 [See c. 1465] | ||
| Division No. 39] | AYES | [7.6 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank | Cronin, John | Henderson, Douglas |
| Anderson, Donald | Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Hooson, Emlyn |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Cryer, Bob | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) |
| Ashton, Joe | Dalyell, Tam | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Davidson, Arthur | Huckfield, Les |
| Atkinson, Norman | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Bain, Mrs Margaret | Deakins, Eric | Hunter, Adam |
| Bates, Alf | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) |
| Beith, A. J. | Dempsey, James | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Doig, Peter | John, Brynmor |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Dormand, J. D. | Johnson, James (Hull West) |
| Boardman, H. | Duffy, A. E. P. | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Dunn, James A. | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) |
| Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Ewing, Harry (Stiring) | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Judd, Frank |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Kaufman, Gerald |
| Buchan, Norman | Flannery, Martin | Kerr, Russell |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Kilfedder, James |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Campbell, Ian | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Lambie, David |
| Canavan, Dennis | Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Lamond, James |
| Cant, R. B. | George, Bruce | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) |
| Cartwright, John | Gilbert, Dr John | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Ginsburg, David | Luard, Evan |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Golding, John | Lyon, Alexander (York) |
| Cohen, Stanley | Gould, Bryan | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson |
| Coleman, Donald | Gourlay, Harry | McCartney, Hugh |
| Colquhoun, Ms Maureen | Grant, George (Morpeth) | MacCormick, Iain |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Grant, John (Islington C) | McDonald, Dr Oonagh |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Grocott, Bruce | Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Crawford, Douglas | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Maclennan, Robert |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Hatton, Frank | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) |
| Madden, Max | Richardson, Miss Jo | Tinn, James |
| Magee, Bryan | Robinson, Geoffrey | Torney, Tom |
| Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Roderick, Caerwyn | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Marks, Kenneth | Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Roper, John | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Ward, Michael |
| Mikardo, Ian | Rowlands, Ted | Watt, Hamish |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Sedgemore, Brian | Weetch, Ken |
| Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Sever, John | Welsh, Andrew |
| Mitchell, Austin | Sillars, James | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Silverman, Julius | White, James (Pollok) |
| Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Skinner, Dennis | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Small, William | Whitlock, William |
| Noble, Mike | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Oakes, Gordon | Snape, Peter | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Ogden, Eric | Spearing, Nigel | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) |
| Orbach, Maurice | Spriggs, Leslie | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Stallard, A. W. | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Padley, Walter | Steel, Rt Hon David | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Palmer, Arthur | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Pardoe, John | Stott, Roger | Woodall, Alec |
| Park, George | Strang, Gavin | Woof, Robert |
| Parker, John | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Pendry, Tom | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) | |
| Penhaligon, David | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Radice, Giles | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) | Mr. Jim Marshall and Mr. Joseph Harper. |
| Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) | Thompson, George | |
| Reid, George | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| NOES | ||
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Mills, Peter |
| Arnold, Tom | Goodhart, Philip | Moate, Roger |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Goodhew, Victor | Molyneaux, James |
| Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) | Gorst, John | Monro, Hector |
| Awdry, Daniel | Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Moore, John (Croydon C) |
| Banks, Robert | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Morgan, Geraint |
| Bell, Ronald | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Gray, Hamish | Mudd, David |
| Benyon, W. | Griffiths, Eldon | Nelson, Anthony |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Neubert, Michael |
| Biffen, John | Grist, Ian | Nott, John |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Grylls, Michael | Oppenheim, Mrs Sally |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Hampson, Dr Keith | Page, Richard (Workington) |
| Brittan, Leon | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Brooke, Peter | Hawkins, Paul | Prior, Rt Hon James |
| Brotherton, Michael | Hodgson, Robin | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Holland, Philip | Raison, Timothy |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) |
| Buchanan-Smilh, Alick | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Rhodes James, R. |
| Buck, Antony | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Budgen, Nick | James, David | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Channon, Paul | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Kershaw, Anthony | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Cockroft, John | Kimball, Marcus | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | King, Evelyn (South Dorset) | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Cope, John | Kitson, Sir Timothy | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Costain, A. P. | Knox, David | Shepherd, Colin |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Lawson, Nigel | Shersby, Michael |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | Le Marchant, Spencer | Silvester, Fred |
| Drayson, Burnaby | Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Sims, Roger |
| Dunlop, John | Luce, Richard | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Durant, Tony | McCrindle, Robert | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Dykes, Hugh | Macfarlane, Neil | Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield) |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | MacGregor, John | Speed, Keith |
| Eyre, Reginald | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) | Spence, John |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | MacMillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Sproat, Iain |
| Farr, John | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | Marten, Neil | Stokes, John |
| Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Mather, Carol | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Maude, Angus | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Forman, Nigel | Mawby, Ray | Tebbit, Norman |
| Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Mayhew, Patrick | Wakeham, John |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Wall, Patrick |
| Walters, Dennis | Winterton, Nicholas | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Warren, Kenneth | Wood, Rt Hon Richard | Mr. Peter Morrison and |
| Weatherill, Bernard | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) | Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. |
| Wells, John | Younger, Hon George |
| Division List No. 40 [See c. 1466] | ||
| Division No. 40] | AYES | [7.19 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank | Graham, Ted | Palmer, Arthur |
| Anderson, Donald | Grant, George (Morpeth) | Pardoe, John |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Grant, John (Islington C) | Park, George |
| Ashton, Joe | Grocott, Bruce | Parker, John |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Harper, Joseph | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Atkinson, Norman | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Pendry, Tom |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Hatton, Frank | Penhaligon, David |
| Bates, Alf | Heffer, Eric S | Radice, Giles |
| Beith, A. J. | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Richardson, Miss Jo |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Huckfield, Les | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Boardman, H. | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Roderick, Caerwyn |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Hunter, Adam | Roper, John |
| Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | John, Brynmor | Rowlands, Ted |
| Buchan, Norman | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Sandelson, Neville |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Sever, John |
| Campbell, Ian | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Silverman, Julius |
| Canavan, Dennis | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cant, R. B. | Judd, Frank | Small, William |
| Cartwright, John | Kaufman, Gerald | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Kerr, Russell | Snape, Peter |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Spearing, Nigel |
| Cohen, Stanley | Lambie, David | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Coleman, Donald | Lamond, James | Stallard, A. W. |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Stott, Roger |
| Craigen. Jim (Maryhill) | Luard, Evan | Strang, Gavin |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Lyon, Alexander (York) | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Cronin, John | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | McCartney, Hugh | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Cryer, Bob | McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Mackenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Davidson, Arthur | Mackintosh, John P. | Tinn, James |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Maclennan, Robert | Torney, Tom |
| Deakins, Eric | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Madden, Max | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Dempsey, James | Magee, Bryan | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Doig, Peter | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Ward, Michael |
| Dormand, J. D. | Marks, Kenneth | Weetch, Ken |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Dunn, James A. | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | White, James (Pollok) |
| Ewing, Harry (Stiring) | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Mikardo, Ian | Whitlock, William |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Flannery, Martin | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Mitchell, Austin | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Woof, Robert |
| George, Bruce | Noble, Mike | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Gilbert, Dr John | Oakes, Gordon | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Ginsburg, David | Ogden, Eric | |
| Golding, John | Orbach, Maurice | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Gould, Bryan | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Mr. Jim Marshall and |
| Gourlay, Harry | Padley, Walter | Mr. James Hamilton. |
| NOES | ||
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Brittan, Leon | Costain, A. P. |
| Arnold, Tom | Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Crawford, Douglas |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Brooke, Peter | Dean, Paul (N Somerset) |
| Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) | Brotherton, Michael | Dodsworth, Geoffrey |
| Awdry, Daniel | Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Drayson, Burnaby |
| Bain, Mrs Margaret | Bryan, Sir Paul | Dunlop, John |
| Banks, Robert | Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Durant, Tony |
| Bell, Ronald | Buck, Antony | Dykes, Hugh |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Budgen, Nick | Eden, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Benyon,W. | Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Churchill, W. S. | Eyre, Reginald |
| Biffen, John | Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Fairbairn, Nicholas |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Cockroft, John | Fairgrieve, Russell |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Farr, John |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Cope, John | Finsberg, Geoffrey |
| Fletcher. Alex (Edinburgh N) | Macfarlane, Neil | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | MacGregor, John | Shepherd, Colin |
| Forman, Nigel | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) | Shersby, Michael |
| Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | MacMillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Sillars, James |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Silvester, Fred |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Sims, Roger |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Marten, Neil | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Mather, Carol | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Goodhart, Philip | Maude, Angus | Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield) |
| Goodhew, Victor | Mawby, Ray | Speed, Keith |
| Gorst, John | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Spence, John |
| Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Mayhew, Patrick | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Sproat, Iain |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Stainton, Keith |
| Gray, Hamish | Mills, Peter | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Griffiths, Eldon | Moate, Roger | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald |
| Grist, Ian | Molyneaux, James | Stokes, John |
| Grylls, Michael | Monro, Hector | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Moore, John (Croydon C) | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Morgan, Geraint | Tebbit, Norman |
| Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Hawkins, Paul | Mudd, David | Thompson, George |
| Henderson. Douglas | Nelson, Anthony | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Hodgson, Robin | Neubert, Michael | Wakeham, John |
| Holland, Philip | Nott, John | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Hunt, David (Wirral) | Oppenheim, Mrs Sally | Wall, Patrick |
| Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Walters, Dennis |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Page, Richard (Workington) | Warren, Kenneth |
| James, David | Pattie, Geoffrey | Watt, Hamish |
| Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Prior, Rt Hon James | Wells, John |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Welsh, Andrew |
| Kilfedder, James | Raison, Timothy | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Kimball, Marcus | Reid, George | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| King, Evelyn (South Dorset) | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Kitson, Sir Timothy | Rhodes James, R. | Wood, Rt Hon Richard |
| Knox, David | Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Lawson, Nigel | Rifkind, Malcolm | Younger, Hon George |
| Le Marchant, Spencer | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) | |
| Luce, Richard | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| MacCormick, Iain | Ross, William (Londonderry) | Lord James Douglas-Hamilton and Mr. Jim Lester. |
| McCrindle, Robert | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Division List No. 41 [See c. 1466] | ||
| Division No. 41] | AYES | [7.30 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank | Deakins, Eric | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) |
| Anderson, Donald | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Dempsey, James | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) |
| Ashton, Joe | Doig, Peter | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Dormand, J. D. | Judd, Frank |
| Atkinson, Norman | Duffy, A. E. P. | Kaufman, Gerald |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Dunn, James A. | Kerr, Russell |
| Bates, Alf | Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Beith, A. J. | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Lambie, David |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Flannery, Martin | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Boardman, H. | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Luard, Evan |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Lyon, Alexander (York) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson |
| Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Garrett, John (Norwich S) | McCartney, Hugh |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | George, Bruce | McDonald, Dr Oonagh |
| Buchan, Norman | Gilbert, Dr John | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Ginsburg, David | Mackintosh, John P. |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Golding, John | Maclennan, Robert |
| Campbell, Ian | Gould, Bryan | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) |
| Canavan, Dennis | Gourlay, Harry | Madden, Max |
| Cant, R. B. | Graham, Ted | Magee, Bryan |
| Cartwright, John | Grant, George (Morpeth) | Mallalieu, J. P. W. |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Grant, John (Islington C) | Marks, Kenneth |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Grocott, Bruce | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Cohen, Stanley | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Coleman, Donald | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Mason, Rt Hon Roy |
| Colquhoun, Ms Maureen | Hatton, Frank | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Heffer, Eric S. | Mikardo, Ian |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Hooson, Emlyn | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Mitchell, Austin |
| Cronin, John | Huckfield, Les | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) |
| Cryer, Bob | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hunter, Adam | Noble, Mike |
| Davidson, Arthur | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Oakes, Gordon |
| Davies. Ifor (Gower) | John, Brynmor | Ogden, Eric |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Orbach, Maurice |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Sedgemore, Brian | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Padley, Walter | Sever, John | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Palmer, Arthur | Silverman, Julius | Ward, Michael |
| Pardoe, John | Skinner, Dennis | Weetch, Ken |
| Park, George | Small, William | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Parker, John | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) | White, James (Pollok) |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Snape, Peter | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Pendry, Tom | Spearing, Nigel | Whitlock, William |
| Penhaligon, David | Spriggs, Leslie | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Radice, Giles | Steel, Rt Hon David | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) |
| Richardson, Miss Jo | Stott, Roger | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Strang, Gavin | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Robinson, Geoffrey | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Roderick, Caerwyn | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) | Woof, Robert |
| Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Roper, John | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) | |
| Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Tinn, James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Rowlands, Ted | Torney, Tom | Mr. Joseph Harper and |
| Sandelson, Neville | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. | Mr. A. W Stallard. |
| NOES | ||
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Griffiths, Eldon | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Arnold, Tom | Grist, Ian | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Grylls, Michael | Reid, George |
| Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) |
| Awdry, Daniel | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Rhodes James, R. |
| Banks, Robert | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Bell, Ronald | Hawkins, Paul | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Benyon, W | Henderson, Douglas | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Hodgson, Robin | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Biffen, John | Holland, Philip | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Shersby, Michael |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Sillars, James |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Silvester, Fred |
| Brittan, Leon | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W' df'd) | Sims, Roger |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Brotherton, Michael | Kilfedder, James | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | King, Evelyn (South Dorset) | Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Kitson, Sir Timothy | Speed, Keith |
| Buck, Anthony | Knox, David | Spence, John |
| Budgen, Nick | Le Marchant, Spencer | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Sproat, Iain |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | MacCormick, Iain | Stainton, Keith |
| Cockroft, John | McCrindle, Robert | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | MacGregor, John | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald |
| Cope, John | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) | Stokes, John |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Drayson, Burnaby | Marten, Neil | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Dunlop, John | Mather, Carol | Thompson, George |
| Dykes, Hugh | Mawby, Ray | Wakeham, John |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Mayhew, Patrick | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Walters, Dennis |
| Eyre, Reginald | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Watt, Hamish |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | Mills, Peter | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Moate, Roger | Wells, John |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Molyneaux, James | Welsh, Andrew |
| Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | Monro, Hector | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Moore, John (Croydon C) | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Morgan, Geraint | Wood, Rt Hon Richard |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Younger, Hon George |
| Goodhew, Victor | Neubert, Michael | |
| Gorst, John | Oppenheim, Mrs Sally | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Mrs. Margaret Bain and Mr. Douglas Crawford. |
| Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Page, Richard (Workington) | |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Division List No. 42 [See c.1466] | ||
| Division No. 42] | AYES | [7.41 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank | Boardman, H. | Cartwright, John |
| Anderson, Donald | Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Castle, Rt Hon Barbara |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) |
| Ashton, Joe | Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Cohen, Stanley |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Bray, Dr Jeremy | Coleman, Donald |
| Atkinson, Norman | Buchan, Norman | Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Cox, Thomas (Tooting) |
| Bates, Alf | Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) |
| Beith, A. J. | Campbell, Ian | Crawshaw, Richard |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Canavan, Dennis | Cronin, John |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Cant, R. B. | Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) |
| Cryer, Bob | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Judd, Frank | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Davidson, Arthur | Kaufman, Gerald | Roderick, Caerwyn |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Kerr, Russell | Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Roper, John |
| Deakins, Eric | Lambie, David | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) |
| Dempsey, James | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Doig, Peter | Luard, Evan | Sandelson, Neville |
| Dormand, J. D. | Lyon, Alexander (York) | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson | Sever, John |
| Dunn, James A. | McCartney, Hugh | Silverman, Julius |
| Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Skinner, Dennis |
| Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Small, William |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Mackintosh, John P. | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Flannery, Martin | Maclennan, Robert | Spearing, Nigel |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Madden, Max | Stallard, A. W. |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Magee, Bryan | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Stott, Roger |
| George, Bruce | Marks, Kenneth | Strang, Gavin |
| Gilbert, Dr John | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Ginsburg, David | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Golding, John | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Gould, Bryan | Mikardo, Ian | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Gourlay, Harry | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Graham, Ted | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Tinn, James |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Mitchell, Austin | Torney, Tom |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Grocott, Bruce | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Ward, Michael |
| Harper, Joseph | Noble, Mike | Weetch, Ken |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Oakes, Gordon | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Hatton, Frank | Ogden, Eric | White, James (Pollok) |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Orbach, Maurice | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Hooson, Emlyn | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Padley, Walter | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) |
| Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Palmer, Arthur | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Huckfield, Les | Pardoe, John | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Park, George | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Parker, John | Woof, Robert |
| Hunter, Adam | Pavitt, Laurie | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Pendry, Tom | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| John, Brynmor | Penhaligon, David | |
| Johnson, James (Hull West) | Radice, Giles | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) | Mr. Peter Snape and |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Richardson, Miss Jo | Mr. Jim Marshall. |
| Jones. Alec (Rhondda) |
| NOES | ||
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Moore, John (Croydon C) |
| Arnold, Tom | Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Morgan, Geraint |
| Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) | Goodhew, Victor | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Awdry, Daniel | Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Neubert, Michael |
| Banks, Robert | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Bell, Ronald | Grist, Ian | Page, Richard (Workington) |
| Benyon, W. | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Hannam, John | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Reid, George |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Henderson, Douglas | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) |
| Brittan, Leon | Hodgson, Robin | Rhodes James, R. |
| Brotherton, Michael | Holland, Philip | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Buck, Anthony | Kilfedder, James | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Budgen, Nick | Kitson, Sir Timothy | Sillars, James |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Knox, David | Silvester, Fred |
| Cockroft, John | MacCormick, Iain | Sims, Roger |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | McCrindle, Robert | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) | Sproat, Iain |
| Drayson, Burnaby | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald |
| Dunlop, John | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Dykes, Hugh | Marten, Neil | Tebbit, Norman |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Mawby, Ray | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Mayhew, Patrick | Thompson, George |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Wakeham, John |
| Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Moate, Roger | Walters, Dennis |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Molyneaux, James | Warren, Kenneth |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Monro, Hector | Watt, Hamish |
| Weatherill, Bernard | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Wells, John | Wood, Rt Hon Richard | Mrs. Margaret Bain and Mr. Douglas Crawford. |
| Welsh, Andrew | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) | |
| Wigley, Dafydd | Younger, Hon George |
§ 10.15 p.m.
§ Mr. William RossI have heard most of the debate and I understand that it is on a fairly narrow matter. We are discussing an amendment. I do not know why I should always have to remind the Committee of its rules.
The Bill says that, in respect of the Scottish Development Agency, the Highland and Islands Development Board and certain other organisations, the Secretary of State shall, with the approval of the Treasury, prepare guidelines for their operations. The amendment would delete the word "guidelines" and put in "directions".
It is amazing that we have heard so many facets of the whole Scottish scene. There was an intellectual argument between my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan) and the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars). The best reply to the hon. Member for South Ayrshire was in a pamphlet called "Don't Butcher Scotland's Future" written by a Mr. James Sillars.
My hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) spoke about our being in a new, complex and difficult field. He said that we were making constitutions and that it would be easy to make mistakes. As far as guidelines are concerned, the SDA is working under guidelines now. Some people may think that they are too restrictive, but they should appreciate, on the basis of the arguments that they have put forward in the past, that we want to give the Assembly as much freedom as possible in relation to the SDA compatible with the integrity of the whole economy of the United Kingdom and justice to other parts of the United Kingdom which feel that Scotland is getting one step ahead.
It was the Scots who pioneered the idea of a development agency. Wales came later. We did so because we felt that there were special problems that required this special instrument. I have been sitting here preening myself. I never thought that I would hear the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) saying how good the SDA was and urging that we should concentrate more power within the SEPD. I remember what the Opposition did when we discussed this matter. They opposed the powers of the SDA and 1538 they had some help in Committee from the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford), the SNP representative, who joined the Tories to retain the cuts in the powers of the SDA that were made by another place.
Scottish National Party Members have very convenient memories. I have a very good memory, and I am determined to remind them of their faults and follies. especially when I hear them telling off the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) in respect of a vote. Let them beware of what Burns said:
Gently scan your brother man".We know something about what guidelines mean. We are working successfully under the guidelines, and there has been praise for the SDA. There is no conflict and no confrontation at present. Certain Conservative Members are suggesting that we should go in for directions. We have some experience of direction, and we know that it is the demands that a Minister of the Crown should issue directions that really cause the trouble. It is an indication that things have gone wrong. If we are to proceed with constant crises and emergencies, we shall have constant confrontation.
§ Mr. RaisonThe fact is that the Scottish Development Agency Act 1975 uses the phrase "give directions". That phrase is embodied in the whole of the Act.
§ Mr. RossThe SDA also has guidelines, which were put in at the express wish of the Conservative Party and the House of Commons generally from the United Kingdom point of view. Where there are guidelines, as long as people keep within them they have full freedom of action, but once we have constant direction people do not know where they are and freedom goes.
The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Raison) should appreciate that by urging us to leave out guidelines and work only on the basis of directions he is asking for confrontation and trouble. I should have liked to go into some of the other matters that have been raised and the general arugment about the efficacy of the policies of the SNP and about how wonderful the SNP says everything would be. I remind Scottish National Party 1539 Members that it is very dangerous to deceive people into thinking that we can achieve miracles by some strange use of words. That was all we had from the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain).
We have something practical in the SDA. I have no doubt that it will grow and expand. I am glad that hon. Members have said that it has been useful. The SDA, working together with the SEDP, is using the powers that we gave it under Section 7 of the Industry Act and is working very successfully. We have seen things happening in Ayrshire, for example in Kilmarnock, Stewarton and Cumnock, and all round Scotland. That has been for the benefit of the local people, through the use of powers well within the guidelines. Let us stick to the guidelines.
§ Mr. DalyellMy right hon. Friend was Secretary of State for Scotland for more than eight years. I ask him a question to which I genuinely do not know the answer. From his previous experience, does he think that there would be a problem about the double loyalty of civil servants to Assembly Ministers and to the Secretary of State and United Kingdom Ministers? I ask this because he has great experience.
§ Mr. RossMy experience with civil servants—some of whom had been seconded to the Scottish Office from the Department of Industry when we took over the Section 7 powers—was that their loyalty was to the job they were doing and to working within guidelines that had been laid down. There was no conflict at all.
§ Mr. PymWhatever comments the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) may have made about the conduct of the debate, I have heard every word and can say that it has undeniably ranged very widely, covering practically the whole clause. That is hardly surprising, because the amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Raison) goes to the heart of the matter, singling out the words "prepare guidelines" and proposing alternative words. I wish to follow many of the matters that have been raised.
One very basic question is raised under the clause, namely, whether the new 1540 separate Scottish Administration that is to be created should have any regional powers. That is a very important question in the context of the Bill, because what is at risk is the unity of the United Kingdom economy and its possible fragmentation by different treatment being accorded to different parts of the United Kingdom. Such a possibility must cause grave anxiety, certainly in the Department of Employment and the Scottish Office and, I should think, everywhere in Scotland.
Industry, both north and south of the border, but especially north of the border, is clear as to the dangers. It has said on many occasions that it believes that any division of responsibility on the economic front between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom will lead to falling investment and put jobs at risk.
That is an extremely important matter because, as has been said many times, the unemployment problem in Scotland is more serious than it is in England or the rest of the United Kingdom.
§ Mr. HendersonDoes not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the important point which he is making suggests that the present system has not worked satisfactorily for Scotland and that it is high time we had a chance to do it ourselves and solve our own problems?
§ Mr. PymIf we are to make a change, let us be sure that we make a change for the better, not for the worse. I think the Minister will agree that industrial interests in Scotland have made the position very clear. Naturally, I hope that he will take just as much notice of those representations as of every other representation which is made.
It is true that the Scottish Development Agency and the Highlands and Islands Development Board are uniquely Scottish bodies performing functions different from those of any other body or agency in the rest of the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, those functions are very much involved in the Scottish aspect of regional policy, and the importance of that cannot be exaggerated.
Once again, the dilemma here arises on account of the type of devolution proposed in the Bill—a mini-Parliament and its own Cabinet. It has been represented tonight from both sides of the Committee that conflict will arise. Indeed, the hon. 1541 Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars) spoke of a landmine of conflict developing on the economic front. I wish to add another aspect to that, because, if I have read the Bill aright, the appointment of members to the Scottish Development Agency will be done by the Assembly because the 1975 Act is a devolved matter under Schedule 11. Therefore, the Scottish Prime Minister will appoint the members and the United Kingdom Prime Minister, through the Secretary of State for Scotland, will lay down the guidelines. That seems to be something of a contradiction.
Such a division of responsibility on the economic front will in itself tend to lead, or mislead, people in Scotland to think that the Assembly will exercise some powerful or even decisive influence over economic policy and industrial growth. But it cannot and will not exercise that degree of influence, because the clause is intended to give the new Scottish Executive some element, but only some element, of influence, and I do not believe that this will please anyone.
The Government should transfer either a well-defined area of real responsibility on the economic front or none at all. I think that they might have had some encouragement from the Stormont experience to be more positive in their devolvement of economic responsibilities. However, the circumstances of Northern Ireland were and are different, so perhaps the comparison is not much help. In any case, the Scottish and English economies are much more integrated—that was the word used by the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan)—and much more interdependent than are the economies of Northern Ireland and Great Britain. The Scottish and English economies are treated as one and thought of as one, with the advantages of larger scale and greater diversity referred to just now by the Under-Secretary of State.
If there began to grow up a discrepancy between the treatment of industry in Scotland or the assistance given to industry in Scotland and that given, say, to the North-East of England, decisions about the location of industry would be affected, and that certainly has implications for jobs and new factories in Scotland.
§ Mr. StokesI am sure my right hon. Friend is aware that in the heart of the industrial Midlands and the workshop of England there is already, before the Bill is passed, great feeling that so much work has been taken from the Midlands and placed in Scotland in order to favour the Labour Party, the hope being that votes will be gathered thereby.
§ 10.30 p.m.
§ Mr. PymI am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. Even with a partial handover such as is proposed in the Bill, a partial handover of responsibility on the economic front will not be to Scotland's advantage. As almost all the information most clearly indicates, the economic benefit to Scotland of the Union of the United Kingdom is greater than to Wales or England. It would be most serious if that were to be put at risk. We know, for instance, that the people of Scotland pay less tax. In so far as that is a reflection of their lesser degree of prosperity it is to be regretted, but we know that the percentage of public expenditure per head of population is higher in Scotland than in England.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) recently asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the percentages and was told that public expenditure per head in Scotland financed from Votes exceeded that in England in 1975–76 by about 25 or 30 per cent., which is a large difference. As recently as 1974–75, Scotland received £146 million out of the £473 million granted for regional aid, which was a substantial proportion. It means that the assistance to industry per head of employees in the assisted areas was £68 in Scotland compared with £37 in England, or nearly double.
§ Mr. Hendersonrose—
§ Mr. PymNo I have given way already to the hon. Gentleman. I am making an important point about the share of the grant received by Scotland which is made available to help regional policy.
We also know that in the 1960s about 70,000 to 80,000 extra jobs were created due to the action of the Labour Government. A similar number of jobs flowed to Scotland as a result of action taken by the Conservative Administration 1543 1970. To some extent that accounts for what my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Mr. Stokes) was saying.
In Scotland the political scene is much judged by the unemployment figures and the policies that are available. Due to the centralisation of policy over the regions and the United Kingdom economy, Scotland has benefited to a considerable extent. Therefore, we are dealing in the clause with the economic life of Scotland and the livelihood of every family in Scotland.
§ Mr. SillarsIf we have benefited to such a great extent, why is it that unemployment, which used to be about 50,000 in 1951, is approaching 200,000 in 1977–78?
§ Mr. PymThe short answer is that there has been a Labour Government for three and a half years.
In this context, it is dangerous to talk of preparing guidelines to divide responsibility for regional aid. It will be done as proposed in the Bill under the aegis of the Secretary of State, who will become an emaciated figure if the Bill becomes an Act. To begin with, he will have to get approval from the Treasury. The Secretary of State's power base in the Cabinet will vanish if the Bill is enacted. He will have no authority worth calling the name. He might as well hand over responsibility to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the first place. If he survives if the Bill becomes an Act, he will be something of a eunuch, which is not the sort of character much respected in Scotland.
It is clear that the Executive and the Assembly could not extend or alter the functions of the SDA. It will merely be another set of politicians and civil servants interfering in commerce and industry. There is too much interference already. This is a good example of the extra tier of government argument. It will impose more forms of more meddling, which is inimical to prosperity.
I want to raise some of the problems of the guidelines and the proposals for having them. The existing guidelines run to 12 pages. What do the Government have in mind by way of division? I do not think that it will be easy. The existing guidelines cover such matters as the 1544 importance of job creation, the needs of the rural economy, regard for profitability, opportunities to take over companies without their agreement and a whole range of other matters. How are the guidelines to be constructed so that the Assembly will know how to act? If they are too detailed, it will hardly be devolution because it will be giving responsibility with one hand and taking it away with the other. If the guidelines are not detailed, why bother to have them at all?
§ Mr. Crawfordrose—
§ Mr. PymNo, I cannot give way. We have had three and a half hours already. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to proceed.
§ Mr. CrawfordScared.
§ Mr. PymThe hon. Gentleman has made his speech.
What is the status of the guidelines? What does subsection (4) mean when it states:
A Scottish Secretary shall exercise the powers with respect to which guidelines are prepared under this section so as to give effect to the guidelines."?What happens if the Scottish Secretary does not act in that manner? This point was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Sproat). Who decides whether the Scottish Secretary has acted in that way? The Scottish Development Agency will have two masters. Will it not play one off against the other? It could perfectly well challenge the Scottish Secretary and maintain that he was not acting in accordance with the guidelines, or that he was going beyond them. What does the SDA do—appeal to the eunuch or to the Scottish Prime Minister? How is this to work?Is it sensible to transfer some responsibility and then try to control the exercise of that responsibility? What happens if a Labour Secretary of State tries to direct a Tory Scottish Secretary to take an equity holding in a firm or to take over a firm such as Fairey? That is an unimaginable nightmare of a situation, but it could happen. I only hope that I can be there to hear the reply by the Tory Scottish Secretary.
We feel that the clause is a nonsensical compromise. There is no justification for the middle course of transferring to Treasury control some part of regional 1545 policy. It is a half-way house that will not work. It will cause conflict, difficulty and differences. If the Government wanted a devolved SDA or Highlands and Islands Development Board, why did they not do that? Or did the Government not dare to do it? Do they want to retain control in Whitehall? Do they think that by retaining control themselves while appearing to give it away to the Assembly they will have more influence and control over the Labour Party's fortunes in Scotland?
We should not forget what is really at the bottom of the Bill. It is not designed to help the people of Scotland or to improve the Government there. It is au fond designed to help the Labour Party in Scotland. In this clause the Government are entering a dangerous area of direct concern to the families of Scotland who at the moment enjoy an undue proportion of assistance from the United Kingdom economy. We want to be satisfied that the Government have thought all these matters through. We fear that they have not done so, because the possible division of the control of the United Kingdom economy would be a grievous blow to Scotland and would in no sense be in the interests of anybody in Scotland.
§ Dr. M. S. Miller (East Kilbride)I hope that under the clause we shall have the guidelines set out. [Interruption.] I do not know whether the hon. Member is referring to me.
§ Mr. SproatWe want to hear the Minister. The hon. Member has not even been here.
§ The Second Deputy ChairmanOrder. Observations from a sedentary position are deprecated.
§ Dr. MillerI would not be happy if the SDA were constricted and restricted by any Government directives. I have cause to be grateful and thankful to the SDA in my constituency. In the Blantyre part of the constituency, the SDA is going ahead with developments which will be of great benefit to an area of high unemployment. It may interest the SNP to know that the area in my constituency with the highest unemployment is the area which gave that party a trouncing in the May elections. Therefore, SNP 1546 Members should note that the slogans and words which the SNP uses to try to con and gull the people, to show that everything in the garden will be rosy if only the SNP is returned to power, fall on deaf ears among the working people of Scotland.
§ Mrs. Winifred EwingWe shall see.
§ Dr. MillerYes, we shall see. I am not complacent about unemployment in Scotland. It is a disaster. Unemployment is high and is growing in every industrialised country in the world. Scotland and England are not exceptions.
What would happen to employment if the SNP achieved power in Scotland? In the new town of East Kilbride, 75 per cent. of the jobs are supplied by United Kingdom or multinational firms. A large proportion of them would disappear if that party came to power.
§ Mr. HendersonName them.
§ Dr. MillerMembers of the SNP know what I am talking about.
§ Mr. HendersonName them.
§ Dr. MillerI know what I am talking about.
§ Mr. HendersonName them.
§ The Second Deputy ChairmanOrder. I remind the hon. Member, as I reminded another hon. Member a few minutes ago, that observations from a sedentary position are deprecated.
§ Mr. HendersonI spoke only because the hon. Member for East Kilbride (Dr. Miller) refused to give way and answer a reasonable question.
§ The Second Deputy ChairmanGiving way is entirely a matter for the hon. Member who is speaking.
§ Dr. MillerI want the Bill to go through. I firmly believe in the good that the Bill will do. I want this clause, with its stress on the Scottish Development Agency continuing its work to benefit areas in need and to bring down unemployment. I believe that that is what the SDA will do.
§ Mr. John SmithThe hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Raison) who moved the amendment, dealt with the fairly narrow issue of "directions" as opposed to 1547 "guidelines". Since then the debate has ranged widely over the whole clause. I shall seek to answer questions about both the narrow and the wide issues.
I was surprised that the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym) raised the question of what happens if the Scottish Assembly does not follow the directions of the Secretary of State. As I told the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Sproat), the remedy for the United Kingdom Government is the use of Clause 37 of the Bill. But the Conservative Party voted against that clause. They also voted against Clauses 36 and 38. A synthetic fuss was made about the Division on a point of order.
The Conservative Party cannot escape its responsibility. Its Members voted against very important clauses which preserve the legitimate rights of the United Kingdom Government.
§ Mr. SmithWe did not reach the clauses because of the time that was taken discussing other clauses. It does not escape my notice that it might suit some hon. Members not to discuss clauses so that they can draw attention to that elsewhere. The Conservatives voted with the SNP against the interests of the United Kingdom. Now, on the very amendment on which they are asking the questions about how we secure the interests of the United Kingdom, I have to refer them back to the clauses they voted against. I do not know whether their behaviour is good politics, but it does not make sense to me.
§ 10.45 p.m.
§ Mr. CrawfordThe right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym) said that the Tories had reasons why they voted against Clauses 36, 37 and 38, but when I asked him why, he could not answer.
§ Mr. SmithThey will have an opportunity to explain throughout this Committee stage. I shall ask them often to explain.
But now I must return to the specific question as to why statutory guidelines are more appropriate than directions given by the Secretary of State. My hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Dr. Bray) has already put 1548 the reasons extremely well in his lucid speech. What we require is to formulate a code of practice designed to protect the interests of the other parts of the United Kingdom, not a power to decree a series of tightly-drafted specific requirements related to individual decisions, which would be the result of a series of directions.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) reminded us, there are guidelines in practice at the moment. We believe that for the Secretary of State to issue directions to a Scottish Secretary would involve a detailed control over the latter's performance of his functions, and that would not be in tune with the general policy of the Bill. We have guidelines already. We have guidelines in operation in relation to the National Enterprise Board and the Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies. The right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire asked me, quite reasonably, what would be the content of the guidelines. Those that the Secretary of State will issue will follow closely the guidelines under which the SDA operates now. It is not a specially complicated or difficult matter.
I accept that there is a common United Kingdom Government involvement at the moment, and that there is to be a transfer of considerable responsibility for the Agency to the Scottish Executive, but these guidelines work satisfactorily and are much preferable to specific directions by the Secretary of State on a whole series of individual matters.
I was intrigued by the speech of the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro), who praised the operations of the SDA and seemed to me perhaps to be stumbling along the road to Socialism a little more than he intended by advocating increased powers for the Scottish Economic Planning Department. We have decentralised a number of responsibilities to that Department, but it will not be devolved. We are not in the business of devolving regional and industrial policy. We believe that that policy is best handled on a United Kingdom basis by the United Kingdom Government and the United Kingdom Parliament.
I was asked why we had decided to devolve the SDA wholly. We did so after a very great deal of consideration. Indeed, 1549 the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire gave the answer himself by saying that it is a uniquely Scottish body. It operates wholly within Scotland. In the November 1975 White Paper, we proposed to devolve the environmental responsibilities of the SDA but not its industrial responsibilities, but it seemed to us on reflection to make more sense to give the Assembly and the Executive control over the Agency as a whole. But they do not have legislative responsibility for it.
Why do we have the concept of guidelines at all? It is important to observe fairness and equity among the regional industrial policies of the United Kingdom. It would not be fair to allow the SDA to give soft loans or extra incentives to firms in Scotland which were not available in the North-East of England, for example. This is consistent with our view that devolution will strengthen the unity of the United Kingdom. I believe that profoundly—and I emphasise it to Opposition Members who keep fighting the Bill at every stage because they believe that it will harm the unity of the United Kingdom. However, I think that this indication—[Interruption] If the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South will stop voting against clauses which preserve the interests of the United Kingdom, I shall then take lectures from him on this subject.
However, it is necessary in our view to have regional and industrial policy dealt with on a United Kingdom basis.
§ Mr. Russell JohnstonGiven that I do not entirely disagree with what the Minister says, may I ask him to explain why the Highlands and Islands Development Board, operating within the budget allowed to it, should not be permitted to vary the kind of incentives that it uses in that area? I should have thought that it could hardly be argued that this would topple the whole United Kingdom economy.
§ Mr. SmithIt might not topple the whole United Kingdom economy. I take the hon. Gentleman's point that the Highlands and Islands Development Board operates in one defined area of Scotland, not the whole of Scotland. It covers the area specified by the former crofting counties, although the area has been 1550 changed from time to time. There is a point that even within Scotland, though, if one allows one particular agency to offer a better set of incentives than those offered by another, some difficulties would arise. That would be a problem, perhaps, between the central belt and the Highlands, rather than, say, between a Scottish company and an English company, concerning the SDA's operations.
We thought very carefully about these matters but we came to the conclusion that it was wiser to have a common set of rules for both the HIDB and the SDA. The hon. Gentleman has made the point forcefully to me on a number of occasions that he thought that the case concerning the HIDB was much less convincing than it was for the SDA.
My hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) asked about new towns and their relationship with the Treasury, as he saw it. There will be no direct relationship with the Treasury or the Government as far as this is concerned. It will be solely with the Scottish Administration. There are guidelines on the disposal of industrial land, as my hon. Friend will see from the terms of the clause, to ensure that, when they dispose of land or industrial buildings, this will be on the same terms as in comparable areas elsewhere. That is really what that part of the clause is about.
The hon. Member for Dumfries asked me about control of finance on the operations of the SDA. At least, that was what I understood him to be asking me about. He asked whether it would be done over the life of a Parliament or from month to month or year to year. There will be no separate United Kingdom control over the finance of the SDA, either for a Parliament as a whole or for shorter periods. All the funds made available for devolved purposes will be part of the annual block fund, and it will be for the devolved Administration to decide how much of their resources goes to the SDA. They will have an opportunity to decide how much of their resources will be allocated to the SDA.
The importance of the guidelines is that they will operate so that the SDA will not be able to offer a more attractive set of incentives, as it were, to industry in. Scotland than the incentives offered in England in the North-East or the North-West. 1551 I think that that is a very sensible thing to decide.
I think that we are absolutely right in not devolving regional or industrial development policy, but when we have a body such as the SDA, which has an important role, the Assembly will have a role so far as its environmental functions are concerned, in a legislative sense. Where it is operating entirely within Scotland, staffed by Scottish people and with a very good board drawn from very representative sections of Scottish life, it seems to us to make sense that the day-to-day administration and control of that body should be given to the Assembly and the Scottish Administration.
I found it curious that the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire was saying that he thought there was a case for greater industrial devolution.
§ Mr. PymWhat I said was that I thought that the half-way house position chosen by the Government in the clause was not satisfactory and that there was a case for saying that we should go further and devolve some real powers, if that was what the Government wanted to do, or not devolve any at all.
§ Mr. SmithIt is difficult to understand the right hon. Gentleman. On the one hand he says that he thinks that there is a case for greater industrial devolution, and on the other hand he says that there is a case for no industrial devolution. Of which one of those attractive possibilities is he in favour?
§ Mr. PymAt this hour the Minister must be very tired. He, too, has been listening to the whole debate. I made it perfectly clear that I thought that these matters ought not to be devolved.
§ Mr. SmithIn that case, it seems odd that the right hon. Gentleman should be saying anything about the case for more industrial devolution. In his famous speech at St. Andrews he proposed devolution of neither a legislative nor an executive kind. One wonders what other form of devolution there is. But that is the devolution to which the Conservative Party is committed in principle. There was no mention of any economic devolution there. The Conservative proposals are so half-hearted and feeble that they do not involve devolution at all.
1552 For once I commend the persistence of my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian. A great deal of it is directed to me, but some of it is directed at the Opposition Front Bench, and one day he may receive an answer. He is entitled to keep pressing, because he has received nothing remotely like an answer yet.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars) made an interesting speech, but he is operating on a different political principle from that of the Government. As far as I can see, he has accepted the argument for a separate State. In that sense he is, in effect, a nationalist. I know that he has differences of opinion with the SNP, but he does not seem to have many on that point. Perhaps I have got him wrong.
§ Mr. SillarsMy hon. Friend is aware, because we have talked about this matter elsewhere, that I am speaking within the context of the EEC, because I do not believe that any part of the United Kingdom is coming out of the Community. This is not a semantic difference between me and the SNP.
§ Mr. SmithMy hon. Friend would want to keep for Scotland the same status as the Republic of Ireland, which is an independent State. If we changed Scotland's constitution to one like that of the Republic of Ireland, we should be creating an independent State. People who argue for an independent State will not wish there to be controls. I understand that the SNP, because it is nationalist, will oppose some of these provisions. I am not a nationalist, and the Government are not putting forward nationalist proposals.
We are seeking to give more autonomy, more control over Scottish affairs, to a Scottish Assembly directly elected by the Scottish people but within the firm framework of the continuing unity of the United Kingdom. My hon. Friend does not favour that commitment to continuing political and economic unity, which is very much at the heart of our proposals. Therefore, we part company on that matter. I suppose that Opposition Members are sincere in wanting to preserve the unity of the United Kingdom, but with their total lack of sensitivity to the feelings of people in Scotland who want more control over aspects 1553 of their own affairs which can legitimately be dealt with in Scotland they are failing to serve the cause of unity.
When we deal with such matters as the SDA we must put into the Bill provisions that are carefully thought out. Hon. Members have noticed the complicated provisions. They hang together. We have here an important measure of devolution, but at the same time we have had close regard to the interests of other parts of the United Kingdom. My hon. Friends who represent constituencies in the North of England and other parts would legitimately ask searching questions if we did not have these protections in the Bill for the interests of all other parts of the United Kingdom.
I do not know what the Conservatives propose to do if there is a vote on the Question "That the clause stand part of the Bill", because it contains important protections for the unity of the United Kingdom. I hope that we shall not see a repeat of their irresponsibility on Clauses 36, 37 and 38. If they decide to vote against Clause 39. their claim to represent the interests of the United Kingdom will be in total tatters.
I shall watch with very great interest what happens on the Question "That the clause stand part of the Bill". The amendment is probably more of a probing nature than of any other kind, and I shall understand if there is not a vote on
| Division No. 43] | AYES | [11.00 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank | Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Grant, George (Morpeth) |
| Anderson, Donald | Cryer, Bob | Grant, John (Islington C) |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Dalyell, Tam | Hatton, Frank |
| Atkinson, Norman | Davidson, Arthur | Hooson, Emlyn |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) |
| Bates, Alf | Deakins, Eric | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) |
| Beith, A. J. | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Huckfield, Les |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Doig, Peter | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Dormand, J. D. | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Boardman, H. | Duffy, A. E. P. | Hunter, Adam |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Dunn, James A. | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | John, Brynmor |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Ennals, Rt Hon David | Johnson, James (Hull West) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) |
| Buchan, Norman | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Flannery, Martin | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Campbell, Ian | Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Judd, Frank |
| Cant, R. B. | Ford, Ben | Kaufman, Gerald |
| Cartwright, John | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Kerr, Russell |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | Lambie, David |
| Cohen, Stanley | George, Bruce | Lemond, James |
| Coleman, Donald | Gilbert, Dr John | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Ginsburg, David | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Golding, John | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) |
| Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Gould, Bryan | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Gourlay, Harry | Luard, Evan |
| Cronin, John | Graham, Ted | Lyon, Alexander (York) |
§ that. If, however, there is a vote on the Question "That the clause stand part of the Bill" we shall see whether the Conservative Party is more interested in trying to get cheap victories over the Government in the House of Commons than in protecting the interests of the United Kingdom.
§ Today must have been one of the most foolish in the history of the Conservative Party in the House of Commons—and that is saying something—because it decided, I do not know whether in pique or otherwise, to vote against some important clauses. Conservative Members have an opportunity on Clause 39 to save a little of their self-respect by not voting against it. I fear myself that they might succumb to the temptation simply to vote against anything—
§ It being Eleven o'clock, The CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order [16th November] and the Resolution [22nd November], to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at Eleven o'clock.
§ Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 168, Noes 163.
| Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson | Penhaligon, Davis | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| McCartney, Hugh | Radice, Giles | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Maclennan, Robert | Richardson, Miss Jo | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Tinn, James |
| Madden, Max | Robinson, Geoffrey | Torney, Tom |
| Magee, Bryan | Roderick, Caerwyn | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Marks, Kenneth | Roper, John | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Ward, Michael |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Watkins, David |
| Mendelson, John | Rowlands, Ted | Weetch, Ken |
| Mikardo, Ian | Sandelson, Neville | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Sedgemore, Brian | White, James (Pollok) |
| Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Sever, John | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Mitchell, Austin | Silverman, Julius | Whitlock, William |
| Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Skinner, Dennis | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) |
| Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Small, William | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Noble, Mike | Snape, Peter | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Oakes, Gordon | Spearing, Nigel | Woof, Robert |
| Ogden, Eric | Spriggs, Leslie | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Stallard, A. W. | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Palmer, Arthur | Steel, Rt Hon David | |
| Pardoe, John | Stott, Roger | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Park, George | Strang, Gavin | Mr. Joseph Harper and |
| Pavitt, Laurie | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley | Mr. James Hamilton. |
| Pendry, Tom |
| NOES | ||
| Arnold, Tom | Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Moore, John (Croydon C) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Morgan, Geraint |
| Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) | Goodhart, Philip | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Awdry, Daniel | Goodhew, Victor | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) |
| Bain, Mrs Margaret | Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Mudd, David |
| Banks, Robert | Gower, Sir Raymond (Ba[...]) | Nelson, Anthony |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Neubert, Michael |
| Benyon, W. | Griffiths, Eldon | Nott, John |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Grist, Ian | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Biffen, John | Grylls, Michael | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Percival, Ian |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Hannam, John | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Brittan, Leon | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Hawkins, Paul | Raison, Timothy |
| Brooke, Peter | Henderson, Douglas | Reid, George |
| Brotherton, Michael | Hodgson, Robin | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Holland, Philip | Rhodes James, R. |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Buck, Anthony | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Budgen, Nick | James, David | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) | Ross, William (Londonderry) | |
| Canavan, Dennis | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Kershaw, Anthony | Shersby, Michael |
| Churchill, W. S. | King, Evelyn (South Dorset) | Sillars, James |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Silvester, Fred |
| Cockroft, John | Kilson, Sir Timothy | Sims, Roger |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Knox, David | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Cope, John | Lawson, Nigel | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Costain, A. P. | Le Marchant, Spencer | Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield) |
| Crawford, Douglas | Luce, Richard | Speed, Keith |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | McCrindle, Robert | Spence, John |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Macfarlane, Neil | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Drayson, Burnaby | MacGregor, John | Sproat, Iain |
| Dunlop, John | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) | Stainton, Keith |
| Durant, Tony | Mackintosh, John P. | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Dykes, Hugh | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Stokes, John |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Marten, Neil | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray) | Mather, Carol | Tebbit, Norman |
| Eyre, Reginald | Mawby, Ray | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Thompson, George |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | Mayhew, Patrick | Wakeham, John |
| Farr, John | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester) |
| Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Mills, Peter | Wall, Patrick |
| Forman, Nigel | Miscampbell, Norman | Walters, Dennis |
| Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | Moate, Roger | Warren, Kenneth |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Molyneaux, James | Watt, Hamish |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Monro, Hector | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Wells, John | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Welsh, Andrew | Winterton, Nicholas | Sir. George Young and Mr. Jim Lester |
| Wiggin, Jerry | Wood, Rt Hon Richard | |
| Wigley, Dafydd | Younger, Hon George |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Clause 39 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Schedule 7 agreed to.
| Division No. 44] | AYES | [11.15 p.m. |
| Anderson, Donald | Gould, Bryan | Palmer, Arthur |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Gourlay, Harry | Park, George |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Graham, Ted | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Grant, George (Morpeth) | Pendry, Tom |
| Bates, Alf | Grant, John (Islington C) | Penhaligon, David |
| Beith, A. J. | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Radice, Giles |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Hatton, Frank | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Hooson, Emlyn | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Boardman, H. | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Huckfield, Les | Roderick, Caerwyn |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Roper, John |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Hunter. Adam | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Buchan, Norman | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | John, Brynmor | Rowlands, Ted |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Sandelson, Neville |
| Campbell, Ian | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Cant, R. B. | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Sever, John |
| Cartwright, John | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Silverman, Julius |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Small, William |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Judd, Frank | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Cohen, Stanley | Kaufman, Gerald | Snape, Peter |
| Coleman, Donald | Kerr, Russell | Spearing, Nigel |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Lambie, David | Stallard, A. W. |
| Craigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Lamond, James | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Leadbitter, Ted | Stott, Roger |
| Cronin, John | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Strang, Gavin |
| Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Cryer, Bob | Luard, Evan | Taylor. Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Lyon, Alexander (York) | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Davidson, Arthur | McCartney, Hugh | Tinn, James |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Torney, Tom |
| Deakins, Eric | Mackintosh, John P. | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Maclennan, Robert | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Dolg, Peter | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Dormand, J. D. | Madden, Max | Ward, Michael |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Magee, Bryan | Watkins, David |
| Dunn, James A. | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Weetch, Ken |
| Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | Marks, Kenneth | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Ennals, Rt Hon David | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | White, James (Pollok) |
| Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Mendelson, John | Whitlock, William |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Mikardo, Ian | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) |
| Flannery, Martin | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Ford, Ben | Mitchell, Austin | Woof, Robert |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | |
| George, Bruce | Noble, Mike | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Gilbert, Dr John | Oakes, Gordon | Mr. Joseph Harper and |
| Ginsburg, David | Ogden, Eric | Mr. James Hamilton. |
| Golding, John | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| NOES | ||
| Arnold, Tom | Banks, Robert | Boscawen, Hon Robert |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) |
| Atkinson, David (Bournemouth, East) | Benyon, W. | Braine, Sir Bernard |
| Awdry, Daniel | Berry, Hon Anthony | Brittan, Leon |
| Bain, Mrs Margaret | Biffen, John | Brooke, Peter |
- Clause 40
- NATIONAL PAY POLICY 545 words, 1 division
- Clause 41
- MINISTER'S CONSENT TO TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE OF CERTAIN PERSONS 770 words, 2 divisions
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