§ 4. Mr. Hoyleasked the Secretary of State for Defence what discussions he has had with the TUC and other interested unions concerning the establishment of trade unions for the Armed Services.
§ 13. Mr. Banksasked the Secretary of State for Defence what recent discussions he has had about the principle of trade union representation for the Armed Forces.
§ Dr. GilbertMy right hon. Friend has had no such discussions.
§ Mr. HoyleDoes my hon. Friend agree that the best way to break the caste system in the Armed Forces and to improve pay and conditions is to get these people to join trade unions? That will bring them into line with other countries of Western Europe. Therefore, is it not 1103 important that we should have early discussions with the TUC and interested trade unions?
§ Dr. GilbertAs no doubt my hon. Friend knows, membership of a trade union is already permitted to members of the Armed Forces. If the trade unions wish to take up my right hon. Friend's remarks in a more general sense, no doubt they will do so.
§ Mr. BanksDoes the Minister of State realise that the Secretary of State's rash statement on trade union membership in the Services has taken the lid off a hornets' nest? If the Government must be stung into acknowledging the justified claims of Service men for better pay and conditions, why does the Minister of State not listen to what the Service men themselves and the Service chiefs are saying?
§ Dr. GilbertThe answer is that my right hon. Friend and my ministerial colleagues do listen to what Service men and Service chiefs say.
§ Mr. Ron ThomasIs my hon. Friend aware that many Labour Members very much welcome my right hon. Friend's statement and will do our best to protect him from the stings of the hornets opposite? It is not simply a question of membership of a trade union but also of ensuring that there is effective collective bargaining and machinery within the Armed Forces, so that the views of the ordinary "squaddie" can be represented and his problems dealt with without all sorts of threats of one kind or another.
§ Dr. GilbertI shall certainly take note of what my hon. Friend says, but up to now we have not received any indication from members of the Armed Forces that they want trade unionism.
§ Mr. TebbitIs collective representation through trade union organisations in the Services compatible with discipline?
§ Dr. GilbertI believe that it has been found to be so in other countries.
§ Mr. ChurchillIn view of the Minister of State's reply that the Government do take account of Service chiefs' views, can he say whether the Service chiefs endorse the Secretary of State's statement as to the desirability of trade unions representing the Armed Forces?
§ Dr. GilbertI think that I ought to draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the precise remarks of my right hon. Friend, which were that he would have no objection in principle but that any such questions would raise serious matters, which would need careful discussion.