Forces' Pay (Hansard, 6 December 1977)

§ 9. Mr. Tebbit
asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will request the Armed Forces Pay Review Body to publish a table to illustrate the comparability of Service pay with other groups over the past five years.

§ 19. Mr. Pattie
asked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will invite the Armed Forces Pay Review Body to include a table illustrating the levels of Forces' pay set against comparable civilian grades for the past five years.

§ Dr. Gilbert
I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend to the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Trotter) on 15th November.

§ Mr. Tebbit
But is the Minister not aware that the present Government have provoked the first ever strikes of firemen and the air traffic control services and have only just avoided a strike of policemen? Does he think that this matter of pay can be allowed to drift on until the Armed Forces are demoralised to the extent that would please the trade union hacks opposite and allow the Services to be subjected to the dangers of mutiny?

§ Dr. Gilbert
Instead of making provocative remarks like that, the hon. Gentleman would be more helpful if he made clear whether he supports the pay policy.

§ Mr. Pattie
Does the Minister agree that the Armed Forces Pay Review Body will have no credibility left unless it publishes a table showing the decline in comparability and, moreover, unless it makes its own recommendation on the appropriate level of Service pay and does not 1107 attempt to second-guess what the Government would allow?

§ Dr. Gilbert
As the hon. Gentleman well knows, these are all matters for the pay review body, which is an independent body whose status has not changed under this Government as compared in its status under their predecessors.

§ Mr. Frank Allaun
Does the Minister appreciate that those of us who want arms cuts do not want them at the expense of Service men's pay? Instead of using Service men as cheap sweated labour—we are on their side—would it not be better to cut the £900 million a year spent on military R and D? Would not a trade union help Service men to secure their rights?

§ Dr. Gilbert
My hon. Friend has posed many questions, but I welcome his support for proper pay for members of the Armed Forces.

§ Sir Ian Gilmour
Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the only proper and sensible answer to the original question is a simple "Yes"? Does he further realise that there is now a serious situation over pay in the Armed Forces and that it will be intolerable if the Government try to hide behind the Armed Forces Pay Review Body next April? Is it not imperative that the full facts be made known by the Armed Forces Pay Review Body and that full tables of comparability should be published?

§ Dr. Gilbert
I rather think that the right hon. Gentleman is saying that he wants us to accomplish the destruction of the independence of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body, and that is something that we have no intention whatever of doing.

§ Sir Ian Gilmour
Does the hon. Gentleman realise that that answer is complete nonsense? Is he aware that the Secretary of State wrote to me a fortnight ago saying that the Armed Forces Pay Review Body was a completely indipendent body, and second, that the Government always expected it to do what it was told?

§ Dr. Gilbert
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would produce the document from which he purports to quote, because I am sure that that is a total distortion of what my right hon. Friend said.