HC Deb 27 October 1976 vol 918 cc482-4
Mr. Ridley

May I raise with you, Mr. Speaker, a point of order arising out of this morning's proceedings in the First Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments when the two Firearms (Variation of Fees) Orders were defeated. This puts the House in a difficult position because the result of those defeats upstairs presumably means that the Government will have to return to this matter in order, if they wish, that the House should reexamine the verdict of the Committee. Can you, Mr. Speaker, inform us how we proceed in the matter?

There is a second point in respect of this. That is that these orders have been in force since 1st October and people have been asked to pay the higher scale of fees for certificates since the beginning of this month. As the order has no validity after this morning's defeat, may I ask through you, Mr. Speaker, what arrangements are being made to refund excess payments to those people who have already made them?

Mr. Speaker

I nearly rose at the beginning of the hon. Gentleman's point of order, but I thought that I would give him a fair run. That is not a matter for me. It is a matter for the Government. I cannot rule upon it.

Mr. Peyton

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. While I do not wish in any way to infringe your ruling, I hope that you will consider that under the procedures, which were designed for the convenience of the Government rather than the House of Commons, this Prayer was taken upstairs this morning. After some time the Committee decided that it had not considered it. Far from liking this order, it actually refused to consider it at all.

Parliament then finds itself in a bit of a difficulty. I am sure that the Home Secretary, as acting Leader of the House, is the last person to wish to find himself in the appalling position of inflicting upon the population, in the name of the House of Commons and of Parliament, a measure that the properly constituted Committee of Parliament has said it will not even consider. With the greatest respect, Mr. Speaker, this is a position which I hope you will agree to consider a little further.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Merlyn Rees)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have a double interest in this matter as acting Leader of the House and Home Secretary. I am having inquiries made about the result of the defeat on the motion—as I understand it—this morning. An interesting point has been made and I shall get advice as soon as I can about the implication, as the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) says, in respect of the collection of fees. I do not think that that is the result, but I would rather have fuller advice, and I am looking at it.

Mr. Peyton

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will undertake to report to the House.

Mr. Rees

Of course.

Mr. Kimball

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I seek your guidance? As a result of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, would it be in order for me now to put my Prayer down again so that the whole House can have an opportunity to consider it and, perhaps, have a chance to express an opinion on it?

Mr. Speaker

There are two points of order that I have to deal with. In reply to the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), I will, of course, consider whether there is anything that I ought to rule upon. I will inform the House tomorrow.

Secondly, any hon. Member or right hon. Member may put a Prayer on the Order Paper whenever he likes, but I do not decide when it is called.

Mr. Ridley

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. With great respect, the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) has put to you is a procedural point. There can be little point in a Committee upstairs considering a Statutory Instrument and being asked at the end of the debate to vote on whether it has considered that Statutory Instrument. May I suggest that this might be a procedural matter which you, Mr. Speaker, felt could he referred to one of the two Select Committees concerning procedure which are still sitting, so that the House, when it appoints a Committee to consider a Statutory Instrument, delegates to that Committee not only the discussion but also the decision on the matter?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Gentleman probably misunderstood what I said to his right hon. Friend. I said that I would make a statement tomorrow.