HC Deb 21 October 1976 vol 917 cc1647-50
14. Mr. Skinner

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now been able to establish for how long a period the police film of the peaceful demonstration of President Geisel's visit in May 1976 will be available for training purposes and if it will eventually be destroyed.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis tells me that the film will be used for training purposes for protection officers as long as it serves a useful purpose. It will then be kept in police archives.

It has not been and will never be made available to any outside agency.

Mr. Skinner

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that it is of the utmost importance that outside agencies do not see films of this nature, especially as there were some Brazilians on the particular film concerned who would be placed in difficult circumstances if they wanted to return to Brazil? Is not the only real way to deal with this matter to destroy the film, and many others that the police took at the time? Does my right hon. Friend also accept that some of us find it exceedingly difficult to understand why, if the police want films of noisy demonstrations for training purposes, the best films that could be taken are not those of the National Front, and not of small peaceful demonstrations such as that which occurred regarding Brazil?

Mr. Rees

My hon. Friend took the point that I made that these films will not be made available to outside agencies. I have learned from experience in the last two and a half years that protection officers have to be trained. That was the genuine reason for this. I have made inquiries about it. No attempt was made to disguise the fact that the film was being made. No effort was made to film spectators. The film will not be made available to Brazilians or anyone else.

Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg

Would it not be a good idea for the film to be made available to the public, so that apart from Brazilians the public could see the "phoney" group from "Rent-a-Crowd" who take part in such demonstrations?

Mr. Rees

It depends on the nature of the demonstration. While there are people who attend these things as something to be done every weekend, in many cases those who attend have a genuine concern about the issues.

Mr. Flannery

Will my right hon. Friend accept from me that on the Government Benches we feel that there is a gross indignity in having to be filmed by the police on these occasions—[Interruption.]—and that it is symptomatic that the laughter about this comes from Opposition Members, who never demonstrate on any occasion, except on the odd occasion with the National Front[Interruption.]—and that on the occasions when demonstrations take place—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. Will the hon. Gentleman complete his question?

Mr. Flannery

On the occasions when these demonstrations take place—[Interruption.] Mr. Speaker, I am trying to formulate my question in the face of all this noise, and I should like to continue. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner)—I almost said my "right hon. Friend" I withdraw that—has made a very important point. Chileans, Brazilians and people from countries in which there are tyrannies are often at these demonstrations, and these films could be used to identify them in relation to the tyrannies about which we are talking.

Mr. Rees

On the last point, this cannot happen. In many cases—not that to which my hon. Friend has referred—it is important to take photographs to identify people who have committed offences, to illustrate to the courts the general nature and conduct of a crowd, and sometimes to counter allegations of police malpractice. However, there can be too much of this. When used properly, I think it is right. The police are very well aware that to overdo it would be wrong.

Mr. Whitelaw

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I apologise for raising it at this moment, but it is necessary to do so. I ask you to instruct the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) to withdraw his accusation that Members on the Opposition Benches demonstrated with the National Front. He knows that that is totally untrue.

Mr. Speaker

Accusations thrown at anyone in the House are always to be discouraged. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) may care—[Interruption.] Order. I know exactly the noise that there would be if a charge of marching with Fascists came from the Opposition side of the House. I am merely asking the hon. Member to withdraw the statement.

Mr. Flannery

As I have not named anyone, Mr. Speaker, I can see no point in withdrawing it.

Mr. Whitelaw

I am sorry to rise again on this point, Mr. Speaker, but the hon. Gentleman clearly said that Members on the Opposition Benches demonstrated with the National Front. That is totally untrue, and as he said it, he must withdraw it.

Mr. William Hamilton

How does the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw) know that that is the case? How does he—

Mr. Speaker

Order.

Mr. Hamilton

rose——

Hon. Members

Sit down.

Mr. Speaker

This is not a time for debating the issue. I thought that the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) had a point of order that he wished to raise.

Mr. Hamilton

Yes of course, Mr. Speaker, and I was about to add, if you had not interrupted—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman was very discourteous not to take his seat when I rose.

Mr. Hamilton

You rose in the middle of my point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was about to continue and to ask you whether you are asking my hon. Friend to withdraw something. Did not my hon. Friend refer to an organisation that is still legal?

Mr. Speaker

I asked the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough—I hope that he will help me in this matter—to withdraw any accusation that any hon. Members in the House are sharing in the National Front.

Mr. Flannery

rose——[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order.

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. What is against—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. I thought that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough was about to reply to me.

Mr. Lyon

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. What is against the rules of order in accusing some Opposition Members of joining with a legal organisation in a demonstration, even if that remark is inaccurate? The mere inaccuracy of a remark is not itself a breach of order.

Mr. Speaker

A responsibility is laid upon me to ensure that if remarks are offensive and likely to upset our arrangements—[Interruption.] I shall not be influenced by the shouting. I am quite sure that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough has been here long enough to know that if the Speaker asks him to withdraw a statement, as I have asked, he should do so.

Mr. Flannery

I withdraw what I said, Mr. Speaker. I am sure that there will be adequate proof coming from the Conservative Party that I was wrong.