ADMINISTRATION AND OTHER MATTERS

HC Deb 21 October 1976 vol 917 cc1727-30

Mr. Gray

I beg to move Amendment No. 25, in page 21, line 26, leave out 'it appears to him expedient' and insert 'he reasonably considers he needs them'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this we may discuss the following amendments:

No. 26, in page 21, line 31, leave out 'it appears to the Secretary of State expedient' and insert 'the Secretary of State reasonably considers he needs them'.

No. 27, in page 21, line 44, after 'are', insert 'by notice in writing'.

Mr. Gray

We are making very good progress, and we are coming to the stage where, in view of the co-operation of the Opposition, the Government may be prepared to accept one or two very small amendments.

The purpose of Amendments Nos. 25 and 26 is to impose on the Secretary of State the discipline of reasonable use of the powers and to remove the sole discretion element reflected in the word "expedient". No one is particularly attracted to "expedient", and in our view it is reasonable to ask that these amendments be accepted.

Any phrase in legislation giving the Government unqualified powers to exercise their judgment should be questioned. In this case, it governs the power to call for information.

Amendment No. 27 is a very small amendment. Its purpose is to require the call for documents to be made in writing. It seems to us very reasonable to ask that this power should be implemented in writing. It is very difficult to imagine that as reasonable a person as the Under-Secretary will refuse to agree to it.

Dr. John A. Cunningham

Nicely though the hon. Gentleman has put his proposition, and although we have drafted many amendments in consultation with the Opposition, I must ask the House not to accept this one.

The amendments to Schedule 2(1) would, firstly, provide that the powers could be exercised only when considered necessary, rather than expedient, and, secondly, have the effect, by casting the condition for the exercise of the powers in objective rather than subjective terms by inserting the word "reasonably", of exposing exercise of the powers to continual challenge in the courts.

I should like to explain why the Government consider this unacceptabe. The purpose of paragraph 1(2) is to describe the purposes for which each of the powers in paragraph 1(1) to obtain information may be exercised. The intention is that within the purposes described—the purposes are limited—the Secretary of State should be free to act as and when he thinks fit, and that is reasonable. The amendments limit the purpose and this is not acceptable to the Government.

Much the same can be said of the other amendments, which I ask the House to reject.

Amendment negatived.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

The next amendment selected for discussion is Amendment No. 28, in page 22, line 14, after 'may', insert: 'at any reasonable time (or, in a situation which in his opinion is or may be urgent, at any time)'. With it we may take Government Amendment No. 29.

Dr. J. Dickson Mabon

I beg to move Amendment No. 29, in page 22, line 19, at end insert: 'at all reasonable hours and'. This amendment is to meet the Opposition's amendment No. 28, and is in a better technical form.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment made: No. 30, in page 22, line 24, leave out sub-paragraph (2) and insert— (2) The powers of this paragraph are not exercisable—

1. (a) for the purpose only of securing compliance with orders under section 15 of this Act;
2. (b) except when an Order in Council under section 3 of this Act is in force, for the purpose only of securing compliance with orders under section 1(1).".—[Dr. John A. Cunningham.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker

The next amendment selected for discussion is Amendment No. 32, in page 22, line 31, leave out "sub-paragraph (2) below" and insert: sub-paragraphs (1A) and (2) below and when an Order in Council under section 3 of this Act is for the time being in force". With it we may take Government Amendment No. 33.

Amendment No. 34, page, 22, line 46, at end insert— (1A) Except when an Order in Council under section 3 of this Act is for the time being in force, a justice of the peace (in Scotland a justice of the peace or a sheriff) shall not issue a warrant in pursuance of the preceding sub-paragraph unless he is satisfied that—

1. (a) admission to the premises was sought and refused by or on behalf of the occupier after not less than seven days' notice of the intended entry had been served on the occupier; or
2. (b) admission to the premises was sought in a case of urgency and was refused by or on behalf of the occupier; or
3. (c) the premises are unoccupied; or
4. (d) application for admission to the premises would defeat the object of the entry;

Government Amendments Nos. 35 and 38:

Amendment No. 39, in page 23, line 38, after "may", insert: subject to paragraph 4(1A) above,".

Mr. Gray

We are being extremely cooperative in hastening on with the busi- ness, and the Government might accept our amendments—[Interruption.] Is the Minister indicating that he will accept them?

Dr. J. Dickson Mabon

If the hon. Gentleman will not move Amendment No. 32, I shall formally move Amendments Nos. 33, 35 and 38, which make a fair swap for his three amendments.

Mr. Gray

As the Minister is obviously anxious to co-operate, I shall not move Amendment No. 32.

Amendments made: No. 33, in page 22, leave out lines 37 to 43 and insert— (b) the circumstances specified in subparagraph (1A) or, as the case may be, sub-paragraph (1B) below are present,".

No. 35, in page 22, line 46, at end insert: '(1A) If no Order in Council under section 3 of this Act is for the time being in force the circumstances in which a warrant may be issued are that either—

1. (a) admission to the premises has been refused after, if the case is not one of urgency, not less than seven days' notice of intention to enter had been given to the occupier; or
2. (b) application for admission would defeat the object of the entry or the premises are unoccupied.

(1B) If such an Order in Council is for the time being in force the circumstances in which a warrant may be issued are that either—

1. (a) admission of the premises has been refused, or a refusal is apprehended, and notice of intention to apply for a warrant has been given to the occupier; or
2. (b) application for admission would defeat the object of the entry, or the case is one of urgency, or the premises are unoccupied or the occupier is temporarily absent.'.—[Dr. J. Dickson Mabon.]

No. 36, in page 23, line 1, leave out sub-paragraph (2) and insert: '(2) A warrant under this paragraph—

1. (a) is not to be issued authorising entry for the purpose only of securing compliance with orders under section 15 of this Act;
2. (b) except when an Order in Council under section 3 of this Act is in force, is not to be issued authorising entry for the purpose only of securing compliance with orders under section 1(1).'.—[Dr. John A. Cunningham.]

No. 38, in page 23, line 36, leave out 'paragraph 4(1)(b)' and insert: 'paragraph 4(1A) or, as the case may be (1B)'.—[Dr. J. Dickson Mahon.]