HC Deb 03 November 1976 vol 918 cc1555-9

Lords Amendment: No. 31, in page 44, line 21, at end insert new Clause A— A.—(1) This section shall apply to any premises for which a public house licence is held and in respect of which an application for Sunday opening has not been granted under Schedule (Sunday opening of premises in respect of which a public house licence or refreshment licence is or will be in force and Sunday restriction orders relating to licensed premises) to this Act—

  1. (a) if the holder of the licence gives notice of the application of the section to the premises in accordance with sub-section (6) below, and
  2. (b) as from such date as may be specified in the said notice:
Provided that a licence-holder shall not give notice of application as aforesaid, and this section shall not apply to the premises for which he holds his licence, unless—
  1. (i) the licensing board for the area within which the premises are situated is satisfied that the premises are structurally adapted and bona fide used, or intended to be used for the purpose of habitually providing the customary main meal at midday or in the evening, or both, for the accommodation of persons frequenting the premises, and that the part of the premises mentioned in subsection (3) below does not contain a bar counter; and
  2. (ii) in the case of premises situated in a new town as defined in section 52 of this Act, the committee constituted under section 47 of this Act for the new town have notified the licence-holder that they have no objection to the application of this section to the premises.
 (2) While this section applies to any premises, the effect shall be that for the purposes mentioned in subsection (3) below there shall be permitted hours in those premises on Sundays, such permitted hours being the period between half-past twelve and half-past two in the afternoon and the period between half-past six and eleven in the evening. (3) The purposes referred to in subsection (2) above are—
  1. (a) the sale or supply to persons taking table meals in the premises of alcoholic liquor supplied in a part of the premises usually set apart for the service of such persons, and supplied for consumption by such a person in that part of the premises as an ancillary to his meal; and
  2. (b) the consumption of alcoholic liquor so supplied.
 (4) While this section applies to any premises, then for purposes other than those mentioned in subsection (3) above, or in parts of the premises other than the part so mentioned, or except as otherwise provided by this Act, there shall be no permitted hours on Sundays. (5) This section shall cease to apply to premises on such day as may be specified in the notice if the holder of the licence gives notice of the disapplication of the section from the premises in accordance with subsection (6) below: Provided that this section shall cease to apply to premises at any time on the licensing board ceasing to be satisfied as mentioned in paragraph (i) of the proviso to subsection (1) above. (6) A notice of the application of this section to, or of the disapplication of this section from any premises—
  1. (a) shall be in writing;
  2. (b) shall, in the case of a notice of application, specify the date from which the section is to apply to the premises and, in the case of a notice of disapplication, state that the section is to cease to apply to the premises on the date specified in the notice;
  3. (c) shall be served on the chief constable not later than 14 days before the date specified as aforesaid.
 (7) The holder of the licence for premises to which this section applies shall keep posted in some conspicuous place in the premises a notice stating that this section applies thereto and setting out the effect of its application, and if any licence-holder contravenes this subsection he shall be guilty of an offence.

Mr. Millan

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this amendment we are to discuss also Lords Amendments Nos. 32 to 37 and No. 48.

Mr. Millan

This group of amendments follows because the House has agreed that safeguards are necessary for Sunday opening. The new clause which is the subject of Amendment No. 31 re-enacts Section 8 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act 1962 in a slightly revised form. That section provides that restaurants and public houses may open on Sundays, and since that time the number which have done so has steadily increased.

Without the new clause, it would be necessary for those licence holders—I understand that there are about 200 of them—who are already allowed to open on Sunday to apply under Schedule 4. We have safeguards, but no one would want those licence holders to have to go through that procedure. The new clause would allow that machinery to be set aside and the present position to continue. The other amendments are consequential.

Mr. Teddy Taylor

As the Secretary of State said, a number of restaurants open on Sunday and there is no complaint about them. On the other hand, the new clause would impose severe restrictions. It refers to premises which do not contain bar counters: drinks may be consumed with meals only. Is he satisfied with the supervision of these premises to ensure that they are bona fide restaurants in all respects? is this something which the hoards should consider or for which the Government have some responsibility? In view of the increase in numbers, is he satisfied with the present arrangements.

Mr. Harry Gourlay (Kirkcaldy)

Subsection (3)(a) of the new clause uses the words: … supplied for consumption by such a person in that part of the premises as an ancillary to his meal"? In order to help the police forces of Scotland in interpreting the legislation, would my right hon. Friend say what constitutes a meal in the first place? Is there any criterion as to how long one must take to complete one's meal and therefore how long one may be supplied with alcoholic liquor within the law? Does the meal finish on completion of the first cup of coffee, or may one drink 10 cups of coffee so that one may drink until the last minute of the period of the extension?

The way in which the present law is being interpreted by some police forces in Scotland would indicate that if one has a cup of coffee with one's meal and finishes that at five minutes to 10 o'clock, or under the new legislation at five minutes to 11 o'clock, one is not entitled to have another drink served from the bar. On the other hand, if a customer decides to have a second cup, or a third, or to exaggerate the position, a tenth, is he still entitled to be served with liquor? Perhaps the Secretary of State could give some guidance.

11.0 p.m.

Mr. Millan

I am always reluctant to give authoritative guidance on the operation of a piece of legislation because to some extent these matters are not for the Government but for the court or in this case for the licensing boards. On the general question of supervision of this section of the 1962 Act, we at Government level are not aware of particular difficulties.

Conditions are laid down, as my hon. Friend has said, about the question of a separate part of the premises and the fact that this has to be a genuine meal and not just sandwiches and an excuse for a drink. These matters are supervised. I can only say that I have no reason to suppose that there is any particular difficulty.

The idea of a licensed restaurant opening on a Sunday is something which an ordinary member of the public, as a potential customer, understands. It is under police supervision. It is not a matter of practical difficulty, although questions of interpretation of what is a meal, compared with something else which is not a meal, are questions for the court rather than for me.

Mr. Gourlay

Surely the court, in interpreting the law, would have some regard to what is said in the House and what the House means by its words? I know that it has been said previously that a judge in court has to interpret the words in the Act, but we should give some indication at least to the police forces because they instigate prosecutions in the first place. They go to threaten licence holders that if they walk into premises and discover someone drinking, with an empty coffee cup in front of him, they intend to report that to the procurator-fiscal for consideration of prosecution.

Unless the Secretary of State makes a statement, some areas in Scotland—I shall not name a particular area—will be affected, areas where the police have been rather vigorous in interpreting the present law.

Mr. Millan

My hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy (Mr. Gourlay) has some particular circumstances in mind but since I do not know what they are, or in which part of the country they prevail, it is not possible to comment with any knowledge. However, it is not for me to interpret the law, nor does anything I say on the Bill or in other ways have any influence on the law. The law is in this Bill and in previous legislation. That is what the court looks at, not at what the Minister says in introducing it.

I know that at different times there have been suggestions that we should put in a definition of table meals. I am not sure that they have ever been defined, but I will check and let my hon. Friend know if I am wrong. A precise definition is difficult and it would be better to leave it to common sense and interpretation. Similar considerations apply to when a meal is finished.

Mr. Rifkind

The right hon. Gentleman said that he was not sure whether a table meal had been defined. Clause 138 defines "table meal". The right hon. Gentleman will find it at the top of page 84 of the Bill.

Mr. Millan

I am sorry about that. The hon. Gentleman is right. But there "table meal" is defined more in the sense of where the meal is eaten rather than what it consists of. The idea of a table meal is to avoid the snack at the bar attracting a restaurant licence. Such a licence is granted only if separate premises are provided for people to sit at tables to consume meals. A meal as distinct from a snack is not defined. That was what I had in mind.

The other matter is to a large extent one of interpretation by the courts. In doing that they will have in mind the new permitted hours laid down in subsection (2) half-past twelve and half-past two in the afternoon and the period between half-past six and eleven in the evening. I cannot give any more precise guidance than that.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords Amendment Nos. 32 to 37 agreed to.

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