§ '(1) The provisions of this Part of this Act, except this section, shall come into force in accordance with the following provisions of this section.
§ (2) If the Act of 1847 is in force in the area of a district council, the council may resolve that the provisions of this Part of this Act, other than this section, are to apply to the relevant area; and if the council do so resolve those provisions shall come into force in the relevant area on the day specified in that behalf in the resolution (which must not be before the expiration of the period of one month beginning with the day on which the resolution is passed).
§ In this subsection 'the relevant area', in relation to a council, means—
- (a) if the Act of 1847 is in force throughout the area of the council, that area; and
- (b) if the Act of 1847 is in force for part only of the area of the council, that part of that area.
§ (3) A council shall not pass a resolution in pursuance of the foregoing subsection unless they have—
- (a) published in two consecutive weeks, in a local newspaper circulating in their area, notice of their intention to pass the resolution; and
- (b) serve a copy of the notice, not later than the date on which it is first published in pursuance of the foregoing paragraph, on the council of each parish or community which would be affected by the resolution or, in the case of such a parish which has no parish council, on the chairman of the parish meeting.
§ (4) If after a council has passed a resolution in pursuance of subsection (2) of this section the Act of 1847 comes into force for any part of the area of the council for 79 which it was not in force when the council passed the resolution, the council may pass a resolution in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this section in respect of that part as if that part were included in the relevant area for the purposes of subsection (2) of this section.'.—[Mr. Jim Marshall.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. Jim Marshall (Leicestershire, South)I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerWith this we may discuss Amendments Nos. 70, 71, 72, 75, 76, 85, 146, 147, 153, 155, 157, 168, 170, 173, 177 and 180.
§ 5.45 p.m.
§ Mr. MarshallI hope that the clause and the long list of consequential amendments will be more acceptable than some of the clauses under discussion previously.
The clauses which now make up Part II of the Bill relate both to hackney carriages licensed under the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 and to private hire vehicles, introducing for the first time on a national scale powers for control of private hire vehicles. The provisions relating to each category of vehicle referred to are inextricably entwined with those relating to the other category and an appointed day procedure is perhaps inappropriate.
A district council should have a discretion whether to adopt the provisions of Part II. It should not be able to pick and choose between the various provisions of Part II, because to retain such powers of choice might lead to a multiplicity of different patterns of control, a situation which is potentially confusing and misleading to the public and to the taxi and hire trades. Furthermore, since Part II is ancillary to the 1847 Act, a district council should adopt the Part only in areas within the district in which the 1847 Act is in force. This means that the expression "district" must have a restricted meaning, so that it refers only to that area within a council's area within which the 1847 Act is in force, including the whole of a council's area. The definition is provided in Amendment No. 171 to Clause 71. Before the Local Government Act 1972, the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 was in force in all boroughs and urban districts and in some rural districts. Since the 1972 Act some districts have, in exercising the powers conferred by paragraph 25 of Schedule 14 80 to the 1972 Act, extended the 1847 Act throughout their district. About one-fifth of districts have taken this action. The others have left the 1847 Act in force in those areas in which it was previously in force.
The new clause provides that in those districts where the 1847 Act is in force throughout the district, the district council will be able to adopt Part II to apply throughout the district, or not to adopt Part II, as it see fit; and if the 1847 Act is in force for only part of the area of the council, the council may adopt Part II, as it sees fit; and if the 1847 decide not to adopt Part II. Furthermore, if, after adopting Part II for that part of the area for which the 1847 Act is then in force, a council at a later date by resolution extends the application of the Act of 1847 throughout its area, it may if it wishes, under subsection (4), further resolve that Part II shall also extend to have effect throughout that part of the area newly controlled under the Act of 1847.
Subsection (3) of the new clause specifies the procedure to be followed by a district council in publicising its intention to make a resolution to adopt Part II.
§ Mr. John Horam (Gateshead, West)I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South (Mr. Marshall) for explaining the clause, because I totally failed to grasp its meaning in its original form. I am not much clearer about it now, but that is not surprising. because it usually takes me five readings to understand such matters, such is my difficulty in grasping legal jargon.
From the title of the new Clause 1 understand that it indicates how Part II of the Bill shall be applied. That part of the Bill comprises a series of clauses from Clause 35 to Clause 71 which provide for the control of the cab trade. My hon. Friend should he congratulated on his initiative in tabling the new clause. Many hon. Members fail to introduce a single new clause to the statute book throughout their careers but my hon. Friend has achieved success with no fewer than 38 new clauses in the teeth of Government opposition. Perhaps he should now enjoy his hour of triumph.
The consequence of the way in which the new clauses were introduced in the 81 Standing Committee is that there has been no time for proper consultation between the Government and the interested parties in the cab trade. I cannot speak on behalf of all the interested parties, but I can speak on behalf of the Transport and General Workers' Union, by which I am sponsored in the House. The union has a considerable interest in the cab trade, as it represents many cab drivers both in London and in the provinces. It is very concerned that so far there has been no consultation between my hon. Friend and the union or between the Government and the union.
The legislation affects a service which is of great importance to those who use it and the many people who make their livelihood by it. We cannot put it on the statute book without the normal consultations. Therefore, I have appealed to the Government, in the shape of my right hon. Friends the Lord President of the Council and the Home Secretary, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South asking them to give sufficient time for the normal processes of consultation. I have received both verbal and written assurances that such time will be allowed. It is only fair that it should be.
I assure the Government that we do not have a hostile attitude to this legislation. The union has been pressing for many years for just such an opportunity. It is rather bemused that after years of inaction by the Government the legislation is being rushed through and there is almost no time to examine it in detail, deciding the rights and wrongs of detailed points.
In the past the Government have said that we could not have this sort of legislation, because they needed time to think about it and Government time was always at a premium. Suddenly we find that we have only a few weeks to consider important legislation. The series of clauses in question will affect a service in which the union has a vital concern as it represents people who work in it and who use it.
I am glad that I have received assurances about the normal processes of consultation. I shall do all that I can to see that they are carried out. I hope that the Government will do all in their power to slow down the passage of the legislation to allow that consultation 82 before the Committee stage in another place and possibly further consideration here.
Many people have worked hard for many years to reach the point at which we now find ourselves. Their legitimate concerns cannot be brushed aside in an understandable desire to get something on to the statute book quickly for what may be other reasons.
§ Mr. Ben Ford (Bradford, North)I join my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, West (Mr. Horam) in complimenting my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South (Mr. Marshall) on bringing forward Part II, though some may feel that it would have been better to leave it for a Home Office Bill to be produced in due course, which would possibly be more apposite. Incidentally, I notice that a Home Office Minister is to reply to the debate.
Nevertheless, we have the clauses before us, and I add my plea for ample time for consultations. Representatives of the National Federation of Taxicab Associations have complained to me that they had little or no opportunity to consult on amendments that might well be made to Part. II. I spoke to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department just before the debate and was told that there are 15 whole days before the Committee stage is due to begin in the House of Lords, and that consultations may take place in that time. That may or may not be sufficient time.
Sitting in the Gallery listening to the debate are people with 30 or more years' experience of operating and studying the 1847 Act, because it is their livelihood. There is an enormous depth of experience which can be brought to bear on these matters and of which the Government should take advantage.
Clause 56 says:
No person, being the driver of a hackney carriage licensed by a district council, and undertaking for any hirer a journey ending outside the district and in respect of which no fare was agreed before the hiring was effected…".Besides talking about a fare in that clause we are talking about a scale of charges. That can be agreed without a total fare necessarily being agreed at the beginning of a journey.83 Clause 57 seems, for the purposes of hackney hire, to be completely impracticable. It says:
the fare or charge shall be calculated from the point at which the hirer commences his journey.That is practicable for the cruising taxicab but not for a hackney hire vehicle which can be hired only from its base and may have two, three or more miles to travel to the point at which the hirer commences his journey. It would tend to distort charges if they were made upon this basis and cause a complaint of inequity by prospective hirers.I should like to see a provision that when exercising its powers under Clause 61, dealing with taximeters in private hire vehicles, a district council should provide and cause to be affixed within the vehicle, in such position and manner as to be plainly and distincly visible at all times, a notice which would indicate that the fares on the meter are not controlled or fixed by that council. There should be a penalty upon anybody who removes or fails to display the notice or alters it with intent to mislead.
Time is running out, so I shall not pursue the matter further. I repeat my plea for adequate time for consultation on an important series of clauses introduced in Committee. This is an important Bill, and the question of consultation deserves to be treated with all seriousness.
§ Mr. Michael Morris (Northampton, South)The House owes a debt to the hon. Member for Leicester, South (Mr. Marshall) for tabling the original new clauses which now form Part II. After some discussion with him, I was happy to associate my name with them and to support him in Committee.
We should take on board the point about consultation, but the hon. Members for Gateshead, West (Mr. Horam) and Bradford, North (Mr. Ford) should recognise that the problem of the taxi trade has been with us for many generations—certainly for longer than I have been in politics, and I suspect for longer than a number of Labour Members have been in politics. This problem has been with us for many years. I do not intend any reflection on the Minister when I 84 say that over the years the Home Office under successive Governments has been dilatory in the extreme in not getting to grips with the problem. Therefore, if by means of this non-controversial Bill we manage to put on the statute book the makings of some sense in taxi-cab law, we shall achieve a significant advance.
I can say from my own experience that there has been more consultation on this provision than there was on the Rating Caravan Sites Act (Lords) Act, on which there were no consultations with any of the interests concerned.
Obviously the hon. Member for Leicester, South did not produce all these clauses out of his head. They came from a well-known source which has behind it great experience in these matters. There must be consultation with interested parties and we are grateful to the Government for having accepted that these provisions should go on the statute book.
I add the proviso that a period of 15 or 50 days can easily extend to a period of 60 or 70 days. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will confirm that these provisions will get on the statute book. Taxi law is important and, furthermore, there are many other provisions in the Bill that are vital to local government—provisions for which local government have been waiting for a considerable time.
We hope that the clause will be accepted. It will give a necessary degree of flexibility to local government and will provide safeguards to ensure national standards to which any good operator will wish to adhere. Therefore, we very much welcome the clause and the consequential amendments.
§ 6.0 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Dr. Shirley Summer-skill)I should like to take the opportunity to state the Government's position on the clause—a position that also applies to the whole of Part II of the Bill.
When introduced the Bill did not contain any provisions relating to taxis and private hire cars. This was quite deliberate.
The Government have been aware for some time of a widespread demand for a review of legislation relating to the control of taxis in areas of England and Wales outside London, and for this control to be 85 extended to include the private hire car trade. At present, control of taxis can be exercised in England, outside London, and in Wales, under the Town Police Clauses Act 1847. There is no general legislation for the control of private hire cars, but a number of local authorities have taken powers in local legislation to extend or modify the powers of the Act of 1847 in respect of taxis and to introduce new controls over the operation of private hire cars.
Many Members will know that the Government have been preparing a consultative document on the control of taxis and private hire cars. Our intention had been that, when this document had been prepared and issued, we should hold consultations on the matter with the local authority associations' trade unions, the National Federation of Taxi Associations and any other interested organisations. Following these consultations, the Government had it in mind to prepare their own legislation which they hoped would be completely up to date and would take account of the many developments which have taken place both in technology and in society since the Town Police Clauses Act was passed in 1847. It was because we thought that this was the best course of action that we advised the Standing Committee not to include the provisions proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South (Mr. Marshall) on taxis and private hire cars in this Bill.
As the House knows, the Committee did not accept our advice on this matter and the Bill now includes a very substantial number of provisions relating to taxis and private hire cars. In view of this new situation, we have assisted my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South, in the preparation of amendments to these provisions which are being considered this afternoon. This assistance has been without prejudice to the point of principle and perhaps I should take this opportunity to make our position clear.
The Government still take the view that the preferable way to proceed would have been by means of Government legislation following discussions on the basis of a consultative document. This would have enabled us to prepare coherent and comprehensive legislative proposals. Even with the technical improvements that are being discussed this afternoon, the present provisions are necessarily some- 86 thing of a patchwork. If, however, it is the will of the House that these provisions should be incorporated in the Bill, the Government are prepared to accept them.
I sympathise very much with the views expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, West (Mr. Horam). He emphasised the need for time for proper consultation. However, my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South, in moving the clause, apparently did not feel that any consultation was necessary. Yet again, the hon. Member for Northampton, South (Mr. Morris) feared that the consultations would be too long protracted. Therefore, it is clear that even on the subject of consultation we have three different points of view.
I assure the House that there will be consultations. We consider it most important that there should be an opportunity to consult those organisations with an interest in this matter so that any appropriate further amendments can be made to the Bill in another place. Therefore, I take the opportunity to invite those who wish to make representations to do so as soon as possible, and interested organisations will also be invited to do the same.
Meanwhile, I shall listen carefully to the points raised by hon. Members today. I have taken particular note of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North (Mr. Ford) and I shall continue to take careful note throughout the rest of the debate.
§ Question put and agreed to
§ Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill