HC Deb 05 May 1976 vol 910 cc1279-83
3. Dr. Glyn

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what legislative proposals he has arising out of the consultative document on transport.

19. Mr. MacGregor

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he envisages any legislation following his consultation document on transport.

26. Sir George Young

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what legislative proposals he has arising out of the consultation document on transport.

Mr. Shore

A number of proposals discussed in the consultation document would, if adopted, require legislation. I cannot, however, announce legislative proposals on them until I have considered the response to the document.

Dr. Glyn

Does the Secretary of State nevertheless agree that the vital thing is efficiency on road, rail, water and all services and the necessary restriction of heavy lorries? Does he equally agree, as my hon. Friends have already said, that there is a real problem with regard to the burden borne by the commuter travelling to work? The Minister has himself said that he is not prepared to subsidise the services, so can he twist the arm of his right hon. Friend the Chancellor to get him to allow travel to work as an expense against income tax?

Mr. Shore

On the first point, of course I agree that one of the aims must be to get the right balance among all the different transport services, including those mentioned by the hon. Member. On the second question, I do not wish to sound unsympathetic, but I believe that an Opposition who are constantly asking the Government to cut down and retrench on public expenditure should show more concern for the broad public expenditure restraints within which we are bound to operate. That does not mean—nor has it been suggested—that subsidies as a whole will be slashed, let alone abolished. We have not said that. What we have asked, however, is that there should be a limit on them and that we should make the best use of them among the different claims upon them.

Mr. MacGregor

Can the Secretary of State give any more details of the legislation referred to in the consultation document for modest relaxations of the bus licensing system in rural areas? When will it come before the House? This is a matter of great concern to hon. Members representing rural areas. Will any of the experimental transport schemes referred to in the same paragraph be undertaken in Norfolk?

Mr. Shore

I cannot answer the last question without notice. I must repeat that it is not right for me, at the moment, to try to itemise those conclusions arising out of the policy review that would lead to legislation. Of course, one of these proposals is that there could be a reorganisation of the bus industry and changes in the licensing system, and so on, but I would not wish to pronounce upon these things until, as I said, the consultations have proceeded.

Mr. Skinner

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the average railway-man, as distinct from railway union leader, may be asking himself why he should support the Government's central economic strategy while the Government have plans, which they could bring into action next year and beyond, to take away his job and those of his comrades?

Mr. Shore

I hope that the average members of the railway unions, just like the leaders of the unions as a whole, will not put the question to themselves in that form. What I hope they will wish to do is, first, recognise the overall national advantage of the agreement that my right hon. Friend has been negotiating and, second, understand the contribution that today and in the future, just as in the past, an efficient railway industry can make to our national prosperity.

Sir G. Young

Will the present Secretary of State dissociate himself entirely from the negative comments that his predecessor inserted in page 79 of the document, about the bicycle? Will he, instead, take this oportunity to make it absolutely clear that he and his Government will do all they can to promote this healthy, efficient and non-polluting form of transport?

Mr. Shore

I reply to that question as an ex-cyclist rather than a practising one. I have always felt that we should make it possible for people who wish to use the cycle to use it to the maximum possible extent, consistent with safety. That is the real problem that faces so many would-be users of bicycles, particularly in our cities. I understand that there are one or two schemes relating to this matter. I am thinking of the one in Portsmouth, which has been tried out by the council, to encourage the use of cycles and to make their use safer. I shall be interested to see what the results are.

Mr. Clemitson

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the proposals contained in the consultation document will achieve the best use of resources and the best co-ordination of the different forms of transport?

Mr. Shore

No, Sir, I am not convinced yet. I look upon the consultation document as being—I think this is how we describe it—a well-researched and serious analysis of the total transport situation in Great Britain. These proposals are half proposals and the whole emphasis is that they should be the basis for consultations. I shall not be persuaded of any particular proposal until I have had that consultation and have heard everyone's views.

Mr. Raison

In spite of what the Minister has just said, the consultative document does include a very firm statement of Government policy. Does he accept that the flavour of that statement is that the massive transfer from road to rail, talked about in both the 1974 manifestos, is no longer possible? Does he propose to stand by the manifesto or the consultative document?

Mr. Shore

That is an unreal over-simplification. I do not think any serious person on either side of the House would wish other than to see the maximum possible transfer of freight from the roads to the railways. Of course we want to see that. All that the document says, and says repeatedly, is that on the evidence before it a massive transfer may well be impossible.

12. Mr. Neubert

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what further consultations he intends to have on matters arising out of the consultation document on transport.

Mr. Shore

I have specifically invited comments from over 100 organisations with a direct interest in transport; either I or my hon. Friends intend to meet representatives of those that are principally involved. We would welcome constructive comments from other interested organisations and individuals

Mr. Neubert

Is it not misconceived that strategic long-distance bus services should be allowed to be dependent for their survival on grants from different local authorities operating competing subsidised local services on sections of the same routes? In advance of an agreed and coherent policy on public transport. will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that long-distance services are not run down and dismantled to the detriment, in particular, of those who have no car and who are not likely to have one for some time ahead?

Mr. Shore

I shall watch out for the problem in the interim period, but in terms of consultation we envisage the sort of considerations that the hon. Gentleman has put forward, which are properly matters for discussion in the framework of the general discussions for which we have asked.

Mr. Ronald Atkins

Will the consultations on the existing proposed policy include consultations with the unions, hon. Members and others who supported the 1968 Act and the Railways Act 1974. the implementation of which we have not seen and which contradict to some extent the present policy as expressed in the consultation document?

Mr. Shore

I am not absolutely certain to which groups my hon. Friend is referring. As I have already made clear, we shall be most anxious to hear the views of the railway unions, the unions generally and the various statutory corporations that are operative in the railway and bus industries.

Mr. Thompson

Will the right hon. Gentleman have consultations about shipping services, and specifically about the urgent need for a second run at Stranraer Harbour, to cater for the British Rail steamers that ply to Northern Ireland?

Mr. Shore

I do not promise the hon. Gentleman specifically that I shall turn my mind to the question of Stranraer, but I hope that the shipping services will be included in the consultation.