HC Deb 05 May 1976 vol 910 cc1275-7
1. Mr. Sainsbury

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will publish all the papers submitted to his Department by the British Railways Board prior to the publication of the consultation document on transport.

The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Peter Shore)

No, Sir. It will be for the board to decide how much it wishes to publish of the information it submits in its response to the consultation document.

Mr. Sainsbury

Does the Minister agree that the long-suffering commuter is entitled to know rather more about the plans of British Rail to improve its efficiency?

Mr. Shore

I hope that it will be possible for the commuter and for all of us to know of the plans, proposals and thoughts of British Rail, but we have only recently published the consultation document. I hope very much that I shall soon have the opportunity of discussing it with the British Railways Board.

Mr. Norman Fowler

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are not prepared to see commuters discriminated against? Will he confirm that the Government's policy document says that there is considerable scope for better productivity and manpower savings? Does he agree that a policy that raised fares but did not tackle the question of efficiency would be totally unacceptable?

Mr. Shore

I am certain that increased efficiency is one of the factors that come into the whole equation of costs and subsidies affecting rail services, but it would be wrong for us to isolate one element. We must look at the whole matter in context. That is what the document has done. It will enable a more rational discussion to take place.

Mr. Ronald Atkins

Does my right hon. Friend agree that while commuters are not discriminated against, since they are merely asked—as Conservative Members often ask—to pay their way, the commuter services into the cities are very important? They are socially necessary in order to prevent congestion and pollution in the cities.

Mr. Shore

I wholly agree with my hon. Friend. I think that the services into London and other major urban centres particularly are essential on social and environmental grounds. It is inconceivable that there could be any serious substitute for them. Therefore, what has been proposed is not any savage reduction in those services but rather the recognition that they are, unhappily, high-cost services and that we must look very carefully at the present relationship between subsidy and charges.

Mr. D. E. Thomas

I warmly welcome what the right hon. Gentleman has just said about commuter services and urban areas, but will he comment on the report in this morning's Daily Telegraph that the Government have approached British Rail and that there are strong possibilities of swingeing cuts not only in the commuter services but in the very thin rail network in the rural areas?

Mr. Shore

I read that account with some surprise. I have issued no instructions to British Rail, and I have no proposals for closure under consideration. Whether there are proposals for them, or whether options have reached the British Railways Board, I cannot say.

Mr. Moate

Do we take the Minister's original answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mr. Sainsbury) to mean that he intends to publish considerably more information about British Rail finances—particularly with regard to individual commuter lines, as promised by the Minister for Transport some time ago—and British Rail's intentions?

Mr. Shore

We had better wait until we see how the consultations go. I have no fixed view on the matter, but it is my intention to give the House and the public as much information as possible, to help them as well as us to come to reasonable conclusions about what options are available.

Mr. Dempsey

When my right hon. Friend discusses the matter with the British Railways Board, will he draw its attention to the fact that inordinate fare increases in Scotland will result in savage cuts, loss of employment and the diminution of services essential to maintain productivity in that part of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Shore

I understand my hon. Friend's anxieties, but I do not envisage savage cuts. Therefore, the dire consequences which he predicts for Scotland are hypothetical and, I hope, unreal.