HC Deb 17 March 1976 vol 907 cc1461-74

10.1 p.m.

Mr. Teddy Taylor (Glasgow, Cathcart)

I beg to move Amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 11, leave out "five hundred" and insert "four hundred and fifty".

I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for selecting this amendment, since it gives us an opportunity to consider further a number of matters which were looked at on Second Reading and in Committee but which were not finally resolved.

On this non-controversial Bill, I am grateful to the Minister for his assurances about the work of the Scottish Special Housing Association. Among other topics, he assured us that despite the economic difficulties facing the Government, the building programme of the SSHA would go ahead at a very reasonable level. We were all very glad to hear that.

In Committee, there was also general agreement that the SSHA had made a very useful contribution to the partial solution of Scotland's housing problems—a contribution in which both Governments had taken a certain measure of pride.

In relation to this amendment, there are three matters on which I think that we would all like further information and clarification. In Committee, the hon. Gentleman referred to help which he hoped that the Association would be able to give to Glasgow in dealing with its housing problem. There was a time when the SSHA made a major contribution in this connection. I have mentioned to the Minister before that it was responsible for building a housing scheme in my constituency known as Toryglen—probably an inappropriate name for that area. But it was an attractive scheme, and it helped Glasgow a great deal. On the other hand, the Association for a number of years has been dealing with other parts of Scotland's housing problem and making a major contribution, especially in the North-East where we have the oil developments.

We were glad to hear the Minister say that the SSHA was considering making a further, new contribution to the solution of Glasgow's housing problem. This is extremely helpful bearing in mind the recent statement from the convenor of the Glasgow District Council that the council was reconsidering its whole housing policy.

I am sure that the Minister will accept that, despite the expenditure of a great deal of money on Glasgow's housing problems, they are still extremely serious. Both Conservative and Labour councillors in Glasgow will accept that if they were given the opportunity to start again from 1945 they would not pursue the policies that they then pursued. It has been admitted by the council that Glasgow has an inadequate proportion of owner-occupation within the city boundaries and a very substantial housing list, which is not unique to Glasgow, but a good number of houses which are difficult to let, even if they are not all vacant at the moment.

In view of that, I hope that the Minister will be able to give some indication of the kind of help that the SSHA has in mind to give to Glasgow. Can he also tell us what discussions he has had with the Glasgow District Council about it and when we may expect to see this contribution made?

It would help a great deal if the SSHA could do some building in Glasgow with a view to forming an integrated housing scheme in which full community facilities were made available. Many of Glasgow's problems stem from the postwar policy of building major housing schemes without making proper provision for full amenities.

I hope also that the Minister will have discussions with Glasgow about its policy with regard to house allocation. It has been the tradition that the district council has been responsible for providing the tenants for Glasgow's SSHA houses and that the SSHA has been responsible for the property management but not for the letting of the houses.

Two matters stand out a mile which would be helpful in the Glasgow situation. One would be if we could have a policy whereby people who have lived all their lives in a certain area were able to obtain houses of their own in that same area. The Minister will be aware that in my constituency——

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not want to stop the flow of the hon. Gentleman's argument but it seems to me that he is going rather wider than the amendment. I have been prepared to let him go wide but in my view he is going excessively wide.

Mr. Taylor

I was seeking to draw attention to the unusual anomaly of SSHA spending in Glasgow. Whereas in other areas it is responsible for providing tenants in Glasgow there is the unique arrangement whereby Glasgow provides the tenants for the houses and the SSHA manages the property.

I turn to the second matter about which I hope the Minister will be able to give us further information. In our amendment we suggest a reduction in the expenditure of the SSHA because we want some information about how the money will be spent. In Committee the Minister suggested that there was a special problem in Scotland resulting from the shortage of one- and two-apartment houses. We are all aware that there is a serious problem created by many larger houses being occupied by one person or by a couple who would like a smaller house but who cannot get one because a sufficient number of smaller houses are not available. The Minister accepted my view that there was a need to do something about this and thought that the SSHA could make a contribution. Will the Minister be more specific and give us some indication of the number of one-and two-apartment houses which he thinks the SSHA can build within its building programme?

We are all aware of the special problem of the single homeless to which the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook) and other hon. Members have drawn attention from time to time. This is a major problem in our cities and I am wondering whether, within its spending total, the SSHA has the means to make a contribution.

The third matter in connection with the spending of this money is whether the Minister will give us some indication of what advice he will be giving to the SSHA about its future rent policy. In the past Labour Governments have used the SSHA as a pace-setter for local authority rents. Therefore, to some degree injustice has been created. For example, in Tory-glen the tenants of the SSHA houses have been paying more than those living in comparable district or local authority housing.

Will the Minister give us some idea of what guidance he will be giving, especially in view of the Government's curb and limitation on public expenditure, in connection with the future rents of those living in local authority houses? Certainly the tenants of local authority and SSHA houses have no clear idea of the long-term pattern of rents perhaps over a three-or four-year period. Will the Minister give us some guidance about what advice he is giving the SSHA about the rent policy over the next three or four years?

If the Minister can answer these questions to my satisfaction I might be prepared, with your agreement, Mr. Speaker, to withdraw the amendment, but I shall only do so if we get the satisfactory answers which I am sure the Minister might be willing to give to us.

Mr. James Dempsey (Coatbridge and Airdrie)

I welcome my hon. Friend's decision to increase the expenditure by the SSHA on its houses and on the improvement of houses. I am surprised that anyone should suggest that at present we should reduce the amount to be spent on housing as recommended in the amendment. We are always told about the extent of deprivation in West Scotland but I should have thought that one of the most effective means of eliminating deprivation is to construct attractive housing estates.

I received a letter not so long ago from the Scottish Special Housing Association giving me the good news that it intended to proceed with an improvement scheme at Townhead, Coatbridge, and is expending quite a large sum of money on this improvement. The letter said that it was hoped to improve 80 houses in 1976–77, but, lo and behold, a subsequent letter arrived a month later advising me that only 40 houses could be improved in the coming financial year and that the balance would be spread over a period of years. I appeal to the Minister to provide the necessary money to enable that much-needed improvement scheme to be completed within the next few years. I hope he can give an encouraging reply tonight.

I am grateful for the increased allocation to the SSHA, but I hope, in view of our promise at the General Election, that there will be no back-pedalling on essential housing projects, and that if it is necessary to increase the capital allocated we shall do so. There was an attractive scheme at Bellshill which was designed to serve the industrial and other needs of surrounding areas. The demand for the houses was so great that strict conditions were imposed and many members of the community who had hoped to qualify for these houses failed to do so. However, since new industries are being opened up, as they certainly are in my constituency, there is a strong need for another SSHA housing estate for industrial workers and for those who provide executive, administrative, teaching and medical services and so on for the community. If we create a community we must provide it with all these necessary facilities, and it is in this direction that the Association could serve a useful purpose.

I hope that the Minister will make sure that the money is made available to provide these desirable houses which are vital if we are to maintain a balanced community. Such a development would be particularly welcomed, even by the local authorities, because the cost of these houses is in no way rate-borne, and with the current levels of rates in our part of the country that is an important consideration.

Mr. Andrew Welsh (South Angus)

I hope that the amendment will be withdrawn. With the massive housing problem which exists in Scotland, the only justification for cutting housing expenditure would be if that smaller sum were more effectively and efficiently spent. I am certainly not happy about the present housing finance methods. The system must be reformed. The Government's promised housing finance review has not yet been issued and we do not know whether they will improve their record. The inevitable consequence, therefore, of the amendment would be a downturn in housing activity and continued unemployment in the construction industry, all arising from a complete failure to recognise the extent and urgency of Scotland's housing problem.

If the public expenditure White Paper is anything to go by, the proposed increase in funds for the SSHA is about all we are likely to get for some time. In a way the amendment tempts fate, because if we get an increase now we are not likely to get much more expenditure on housing for some time in the future. There will be a cut of £90 million from last year's estimates, and by 1978–79 the rate of public expenditure on housing is planned to decrease from IT per cent. to 1 per cent. anyway.

10.15 p.m.

Any financial allocation has an enormous problem to meet with 180,000 houses estimated to be below tolerable standard and increased overcrowding. The 1971 census showed that 440,000 council tenants were "grossly overcrowded". That is double the 1966 figure. There are estimated to be 200,000 houses in need of repair. When we fit that picture into a situation of pockets of hard-core urban deprivation, which are the worst in the United Kingdom, and an estimated 35,000 single homeless people in Glasgow alone, we have something to conjure with. Added to that the prices of new and second-hand houses are rising more rapidly in Scotland than anywhere else in the United Kingdom. Looking at the whole situation, one can begin to see that prospective Scottish house-buyers may be forced to meet many problems with wages which on average are among the lowest in the United Kingdom. When we fit this picture together, the problems become only too clear.

Given Scotland's massive housing problems, any notion of such a cut as is proposed in the amendment becomes an insult. I do not favour unlimited spending from the public purse, but housing should be given the priority that it justly deserves. I reject the amendment and ask the Government to press forward urgently with their reform of housing finance. The problem is there. We must get the resources where they are most needed. The SSHA has a good record of building houses. It should be encouraged to continue the process.

Mr. George Younger (Ayr)

The amendment, as I am sure the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Welsh) knows, is designed to give us a chance to discuss the Scottish Special Housing Association. It is not intended that less money should be spent on housing.

The highest rented SSHA houses in Scotland are in the village of Symington in my constituency. It is a high-rented, attractive scheme in a very nice situation. With the payment of high rents there ought to be outstandingly good services for the tenants on that estate. They have had some troubles in the past few years, because there has been slowness in carrying out repairs to their houses. For example, there have been niggling things such as the provision of a common television aerial for the scheme. The situation has been most unsatisfactory for a number of tenants.

I am not generally criticising the SSHA, because it has been most responsive to complaints and suggestions regarding the problems which have arisen. However, I ask the Minister to reinforce and establish the principle that, where tenants are expected to pay high rents for good houses in an SSHA scheme, or any other, they are entitled to exceptionally good services.

Secondly, what progress is the SSHA making in selling its houses to sitting tenants? That is an extremely desirable object not only on general grounds but because it would reduce the need for some of the extra money that is required. Alternatively, it might enable more money to be made available to extend house-building schemes elsewhere. I hope that the SSHA gets every encouragement from the Minister to sell houses to sitting tenants who wish to buy them.

My third question concerns housing in Glasgow, about which my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) knows much more than I. Every time I go through Glasgow I am increasingly disturbed by the growing number of comparatively new houses which are being boarded up because they have fallen into such disrepair that tenants will not accept them. One person cannot do a survey himself, but I know of a number of places where the number of such houses is increasing rapidly—some in the Minister's constituency.

Like all local authorities, Glasgow District Council must be short of resources, but might not the extra money for the SSHA be well spent if the association were invited to extend its operations to house improvements—certainly the programme of improvements was stepped up during my time at the Scottish Office—and to help the district council to move into some of these schemes? It is a shame, when there are so many waiting lists, that these houses should be boarded up. I hope that the Minister will discuss this with the council and the association.

How much of this extra money is likely to be devoted to the Association's building programme in the North-East in connection with North Sea oil development? I was in at the beginning of this desirable programme. Many of the local authorities concerned find it difficult to provide the funds for the tremendously increased building needed. The SSHA is doing a good job in this respect, but we should be assured that any extra burden is met by the Government in addition to the funds that it needs for its other activities. We should also be assured that any restrictions on the extra money that the Association requires should not apply to money needed for North Sea oil development. This principle was established by the previous Government when I was at the Scottish Office.

I appreciate that the Minister may not be able to give a complete answer tonight, but I hope that he will do so when he has had time to consider the matter. An extra programme of this kind should not have an adverse effect on the Association's other activities. If the Minister says that the Government will make funds available, I shall be reassured.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will pass on to the SSHA the best wishes of all hon. Members for its work and their congratulations on the high standard of the schemes that it is producing throughout Scotland.

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Hugh D. Brown)

I had better start by referring to the amendment so as to get in order. It would lower the maximum at which the Secretary of State, by Order subject to the approval of this House, could make future advances to the Scottish Special Housing Association. In practice, the Government would have to approach Parliament with further legislation, as the Association's capital expenditure approached the borrowing limit, at least a year sooner than would otherwise be necessary. However, in the light of our discussions in Committee, I appreciate that this is a technical device to enable hon. Members to raise one or two relevant matters.

We are pursuing the policy of a buildup of the housing programme for oil-related needs in the North-East. Local authorities receive special provision on top of what the SSHA contributes. I am quite satisfied that we have made adequate financial arrangements to relieve these areas of the burdens caused by oil-related developments.

Mr. Alick Buchan-Smith (North Angus and Mearns)

We are grateful for the assurance that the Minister has given. Could he comment on the finance and resources available for water and sewerage schemes, which are vital for housing developers? There are some cases—and I do not accuse only this Government of this—where resources are made available for housing but the necessary services are sometimes not forthcoming.

Mr. Brown

The hon. Gentleman has given me the opportunity to apologise if I offended him at Question Time recently when I said that I could not accept responsibility for the past defaults of Conservative county councils.

It has not been easy to achieve a relationship between the various district councils in the North-East and the regional councils because of the enormous problems involved. Both the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) know these problems better than most. They are genuine problems. In spite of the difficulties and political differences between Aberdeen district, the Grampian Region and other districts, I am confident of the relationship that has flowed from the reform of local government, which I supported wholeheartedly. In spite of the practical and political difficulties in the area the degree of co-operation has been substantial.

When I last visited Aberdeen the problems that might arise on capital expenditure for water and sewerage were raised. I shall write to the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) on this matter as he has written to me, but I am confident that we can overcome the genuine problems created by the reform of local government.

I am also worried about empty houses. We had a long debate on this issue when the hon. Member for Ayr tried to put on the statute book what was known as a "vicious" Housing Bill. There are fewer empty houses than there were in Glasgow, but I am concerned that the system is unable to match the number of houses available to the number required for the homeless and those living in overcrowded conditions. I have tremendous sympathy for Glasgow District Council over what can only be described as some awkward customers who try to blackmail it into giving accommodation at the expense of those who have been waiting a long time. Anyone who knows anything about the unfortunate publicity that that attracts will realise the problem of allocation. However, there has been an improvement in the situation in Glasgow.

I was asked about the selling of SSHA houses. We shall not discourage any applications that are made. Over recent years there have only been a handful of applications for the sale of SSHA houses. We have not changed our policy and take into account waiting lists and other demands. We shall not discourage the SSHA or other local authorities in appropriate places.

The hon. Member for Ayr sought an assurance that high-rented houses in Symington—a good amenity area—would get better repair and maintenance services than in other areas. I could not give him such an assurance. I have no detailed knowledge of Symington, but if the hon. Gentleman has any particular problem I shall be happy to take it up with him. However, on the general point, the SSHA has a reasonably good record as housing managers, although there are sometimes local difficulties. If the hon. Gentleman has anything particular in mind, I should be happy to look at it.

10.30 p.m.

It would be a waste of time replying to the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Welsh) because he is such a dismal Jonah about everything that happens in Scotland that what he says is becoming tedious repetition with no content. Sooner or later the people of Scotland are bound to tumble to the rubbish talked by the SNP, when——

Mr. Welsh rose——

Mr. Brown

Let me finish. Indeed, for the SNP to keep repeating things that have a grain of truth in them is even more despicable than telling deliberate lies. I do not know where the hon. Gentleman got the figure of 35,000 for single homeless in Glasgow. I presume that it includes students, tourists and everyone else who can become a statistic. I am not aware of any figure such as that being accepted by any responsible authority. The hon. Gentleman might at least now and again give a grudging welcome to what we are trying to do.

In reply to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor), perhaps I may say that we are giving a considerable boost of something over 1,500 houses to Glasgow as a contribution, in addition to the high levels of public expenditure that will be available for Glasgow for new house building through Glasgow's own resources, modernisation and all the rest.

I wish that at least now and again the SNP would recognise some of the facts and give credit where credit is due. That seems to sum up the SNP.

Mr. Welsh

I should be happy to give credit where credit was due. I am happy to recognise the fact that the hon. Gentleman may find repetition tedious. However, if he thinks that there is no content to what I have said, he should take a walk through the city that he represents and some of our major cities in Scotland. He would then see that what I have described is far too much of a concrete problem. I am also happy to repeat and repeat it until some action is forthcoming.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Gal-pern)

Order. I shall not permit interventions to be used for the purpose of making additional speeches.

Mr. Brown

I got into trouble with you last night, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because I gave way for an SNP interruption. I presume that you have just emphasised that you were right last night.

All I would say to the hon. Member for South Angus is that he should not be so insulting. I walk around not only my own constituency. I am also happy to say that I was born and bred in Glasgow. The hon. Gentleman must not try to teach me anything about Glasgow's problems. All that I am trying to get him to admit is that the Bill makes increased amounts available not only for Scotland generally but for Glasgow in particular. If the hon. Gentleman were willing to interrupt me and to say "I applaud the Government for their contribution in this regard to the solution of Glasgow's housing problem", on that condition I should allow him to do so. However, in any case, I shall not allow him to interrupt.

My hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey) raised certain matters. A substantial amount of money is available under the Bill for modernisation and improvement. It is not my job to dictate to the SSHA the areas in which it should be used or, indeed, the rate of modernisation in any particular scheme. I am not aware of the details of the Townhead scheme. However, if my hon. Friend cares to take up the matter with me, I shall look at it. It is a responsibility of the SSHA, and I am certain that the local authority and my hon. Friend can make direct representations to the SSHA.

I conclude by saying to the hon. Member for Cathcart that I welcome his constructive approach. As regards one and two-apartment houses, I assure the hon. Gentleman that we have suggested to the SSHA that it should include those in all future building schemes where appropriate. The hon. Gentleman will know, and will appreciate, that as the SSHA works closely—I am talking about Glasgow particularly in this context—with the district authority, it may well be that it could finish up by building none. That is not likely, but it would be part of an overall plan in terms of housing needs to discuss with the local authority which authority should be building one and two-apartment houses. I can give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that, if the SSHA is building a sizeable scheme, rather than just family houses, there will be provision for one or two-apartment houses.

The allocation system works reasonably well. There is a greater awareness and we should encourage the good housing management policies of both housing authorities and the SSHA.

I only know what I have read in the Press about Glasgow reconsidering its policies. I assume that Glasgow, like other large authorities, is recognising that the Government are not attempting to achieve a housing programme simply in order that we can say that we were responsible for building more houses in the public sector than the previous Administration—although that would not be hard. Policies need to change, and they have to be more sophisticated and specialised. I am delighted that the Labour group in Glasgow are bringing new ideas to the problems that confront the city, although I understand that they have not yet made any decisions. My Department and the SSHA will give them all the help and encouragement that we can.

On the rents issue, I cannot give a guarantee but there is no intention of using the SSHA as a trend setter. It must reflect slightly higher rent levels because there is no rate fund contribution available to it. Until it is part of a longer-term housing finance review there will be anomalies. Like local authorities, it will need to make a contribution to rent increases in the future because of the public expenditure commitment, but I hope that it will be done in a fair and understanding manner. Because there are fewer housing authorities in Scotland it may be possible to obviate some of the anomalies.

In view of what I have said, I am sure that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart will withdraw his amendment. I think that we have already had a Third Reading debate on it.

Mr. Teddy Taylor

In view of the clear assurance that the SSHA will be allowed to continue the very good work that it did under the Conservative Government" I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill read the Third time and passed.

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