HC Deb 11 March 1976 vol 907 cc760-6

10.20 p.m.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Roland Moyle)

I beg to move, That the Members' Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th February, be approved. The Order relates entirely to the pension position of Members of the Northern Ireland House of Commons which ceased to exist in 1972 and does not relate to the pension position of Members of the Assembly. I should be out of order if I discussed the pension position of the latter group.

The purpose of the Order is to make improvements in the contributory pension scheme for former Members of the Northern Ireland House of Commons which is provided for in the Ministerial Salaries and Members' Pensions Act (Northern Ireland) 1965; that scheme is similar to the scheme which applied to Members of this House until 1972.

The 1965 scheme for Members of this House which existed until 1972 was radically modified by the Parliamentary and Other Pensions Act 1972, which improved our pension conditions, and parallel action was to have been taken in Northern Ireland but was not taken at the time of the Westminster Act because of the constitutional uncertainties which at that time surrounded the abolition of the Parliament of Northern Ireland. It is now proposed that the scheme for former Members of Parliament of Northern Ireland should be improved in certain respects to accord with the improvements which were made in the pension scheme for this House in 1972 for people ceasing to be Members of the Northern Ireland Parliament after 1st January 1972, which was also the effective date for corresponding improvements introduced in this House.

The Order will give effect to the proposals I have just described by amending the Ministerial Salaries and Members' Pension Act (Northern Ireland) 1965. Article I of the Order provides that the Order shall come into operation on the seventh day after it is made, and Article 2 applies the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) to its provisions.

Under Section 5 of the Northern Ireland Pensions Act 1965 certain fixed sums were paid annually into the Members' contributory pension fund from moneys provided by Parliament. Article 3(1) of the Order provides instead for the annual payment into the fund out of moneys appropriated by Measure of an amount recommended by an actuary. This is necessary because there will be no further contributions from Members of the Northern Ireland Parliament to the pension fund and also because increased burdens will be placed on the pension fund as a result of improvements which are made by subsequent Articles in the Order. There are some consequential amendments which are introduced by Article 3(2).

Article 4 reduces the qualifying period for pension from 10 years' to four years' reckonable service. This change will give entitlement to pension at the age of 65 to a number of former Members who did not become Members of the Assembly.

Article 5 gives former Members the right to receive an actuarily reduced pen- sion at the age of 60 instead of waiting until the age of 65.

Article 6 precludes payment of a pension during any period when the person concerned was a Member of the Assembly or a Member of the Convention or a candidate for an election to either of them.

Finally, Article 7 gives former Members who have not or will not become entitled to a Member's pension the right to receive a refund of contributions immediately, if they so choose, instead of having to wait for varying periods as provided by Section 10(1)(b) of the originating Act.

I commend the Order to the House.

10.25 p.m.

Mr. John Biggs-Davison (Epping Forest)

The hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) and the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), two former Members of the House of Commons at Stormont, are in the House tonight, and the presentation of the Order enables me to salute the memory of that House. It was imperfect, but is this House of Commons without blemish? It served Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom well through half a century of civil war, world war and change.

The House of Commons at Stormont and the Senate were in fact displayed as a model of the Westminster parliamentary system to studious visitors from branches of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association in newer and less sophisticated legislatures across the sea.

The passing was mourned not only by Unionists but by a number of nationalists on both sides of the Irish border. Therefore, it is in no carping spirit that I ask the Minister of State how many are the beneficiaries and what will be the cost. Has the Order been introduced now in response to representations? Is there any particular reason why this moment has been chosen?

The Order was introduced first in another place. There, as the Minister of State knows, the noble Lord, Lord Shin-well, seized the opportunity of pleading for another deserving class of parliamentarians. I mean those who retired from this House too early to benefit from the pensions change of 1965.

But I must not stray from the Order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You would at once call me to account if I sought to do that. But the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, in replying to the debate in the other place, promised to convey his noble Friend's view to the correct sources in Government".—[[Official Report, House of Lords, 9th March 1976; Vol. 368, col. 1231.] as he put it. I hope we shall have a statement from Her Majesty's Government before long, because these few former colleagues of ours in this House lie a little on our conscience.

10.28 p.m.

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North)

I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman has said. I do not need to declare an interest, because I was not long enough in the House of Commons to benefit under this Order. I should, however, like to pay tribute to a former Member of the Stormont House of Commons. I refer to Mr. Vivian Simpson, who was very assiduous in his work in seeking to press the interests of former Members of the House of Commons at Stormont. I think that part of the representation that has gone into the Order came from Mr. Simpson.

I have a number of questions to ask the Minister. He said that he would not be dealing with a pension scheme for the Assembly, as that did not come into it. But could he explain to us Article 6 of the Order, which talks about a person being a Member of the Assembly, and says that for the purposes of this subsection a person who ceases to be a member of the Assembly in consequence of the dissolution of the Assembly (other than the dissolution under the Northern Ireland Assembly (Dissolution) Order 1975", and so on?

Is the Minister maintaining in this Order that the Assembly is still in existence as such, or is he saying that the former Members of the Assembly before it was dissolved still retain their place in the terms of the Order, as Members of the Assembly?

The new paragraph (3) set out in Article 6 says that A pension under this section shall continue for the life of the person to whom is it payable", but there are certain exceptions, and these are listed. Perhaps the Minister could help us on that point. Does this also apply to those who were Ministers in the former House of Commons, or do they come under a separate pension scheme?

Can the Minister tell us the number of people who will benefit under this scheme? I believe that the norm is a reduction from 10 years' reckonable service to four years. Can the Minister tell us the number of people who would be eligible under this scheme? Could the hon. Gentleman tell us how many former Ministers will be receiving a different type of pension who will not be eligible under this scheme? Is he to lay another Order with regard to the pensions of those who served briefly in the Assembly, or will they get back the money deducted from their salaries towards a pension?

The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Biggs-Davison) paid tribute to the Stormont Parliament, but it was the Conservative Party which took the initiative and destroyed that Parliament. I know that he was in conflict with the then Government, and I pay full tribute to him for that, but we must put it on record that the destruction of the Stormont Parliament came from a Conservative Government.

10.31 p.m.

Mr. Gerard Fitt (Belfast, West)

I wonder whether this will be the last word in the minds of many people about the unlamented Stormont Parliament. The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Biggs-Davison) tried to create the impression that Stormont had the support and good will of the majority of people in Northern Ireland. That was not so. We have seen by the events which began to happen in 1969 that that Parliament was ruling without consensus.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Does the hon. Gentleman dissent from the judgment of Professor Richard Rose that only 12 per cent. of the population of Northern Ireland were disaffected from the old constitution?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern)

Order. We are discussing pensions, not the history of Stormont.

Mr. Fitt

I have no intention of going into it at great length, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I remind the hon. Member for Epping Forest that Professor Rose's intellectual work on the situation was called "Government without Consensus". That is why Stormont is no longer in existence.

We can express regret for those Members of the old Stormont Parliament who were elected in 1969 and were there until Stormont was abolished by the Conservative Government. Many people who were in that Parliament for years leading up to the events of 1969 perhaps had a more peaceful time in the representation of their constituencies, but the many politicians elected in 1969, at the beginning of the present troubles, had only three years of service, and now they are not to be beneficiaries under this Order.

How many Members of the old Stomont Parliament will qualify for pension under this Order? What will the rate of pension be? I understand that it will be reckonable on the number of years of service. I think that a statutory amount was taken off every Member, irrespective of whether he was married or single or what his tax coding was. Can my hon. Friend indicate what might be payable to those Members for the years 1969 to 1972? This is of interest to the former Members of the old Stormont Parliament, not restricted exclusively to what was then known as the Opposition side. Many people are involved.

10.32 p.m.

Mr. Moyle

I have been asked a number of questions. To the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Biggs-Davison) I say that it was always the intention to bring the Stormont Parliament pension scheme into line with the improvements made to the pension scheme in this House, although different quantums were involved. There has been some delay because of the constitutional confusions in Northern Ireland. In the interim period, naturally, there was some anxiety about what would happen. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State received at least one deputation from Stormont Members of Parliament. This new scheme will ensure that 46 Members of the Stormont Parliament are covered. The annual cost, certainly at commencement, will be £8,000.

The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) drew attention to Article 6 of the Order. The need for this arises because there is no fixed retirement age for Members of the Stormont Parliament. It was therefore possible, in theory, for Members to retire, receive pensions, then decide to stand again for Parliament. If re-elected it would be wrong in principle for them to draw salary and pension at one and the same time. Therefore the pension was suspended when they were re-elected.

The Stormont Parliament and the pension scheme did not last long enough together for this event to take place. Since then we have had the Assembly and the Convention. The position is similar with regard to the Assembly and Convention. Someone who retired, possibly from the Stormont Parliament, started to draw a pension and was then elected to the Assembly or Convention would have had his pension suspended during the period of service in either of those bodies. It is necessary to make that clear by the introduction of the provisions of Article 6.

Ministers are covered by the pension scheme. I cannot say how many are covered at the moment. The question of the pensions of Assembly Members is under review. No decisions have yet been taken. The pension of each person must vary according to the length of contributory and reckonable service. The average pension for Stormont Members would be £664 a year. There are, I think, two widows, and they would get an average of £291 a year.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved, That the Members' Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th February, be approved.