HC Deb 30 June 1976 vol 914 cc365-8
1. Mrs. Bain

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a further statement on teacher unemployment.

2. Mr. Teddy Taylor

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a further statement on teacher unemployment.

9. Mr. Dempsey

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many representations he has received from students advocating the creation of an adequate number of additional teaching posts with a view to employing all newly-qualified teachers at the beginning of the new school session; and if he will make a statement regarding the nature of his replies.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Bruce Millan)

Representations on teacher unemployment have been made by about 175 students. In addition, I have received two petitions organised by students. The replies have referred to the detailed statement which I made in my reply of 26th May to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. White) which outlined a number of courses of action that are still being pursued and to the consultations I have since carried out.

Mrs. Bain

Does the Secretary of State accept that the fact that he has come forward with no positive proposals will be greeted with dismay not only by the teaching profession but by parents throughout Scotland who find it difficult to accept a situation in which there is a high level of unemployment amongst teachers while children are being subjected to the development of composite classes? What consideration has the right hon. Gentleman given to the EIS survey submitted to him earlier this week, which shows that more than 400 schools which previously did not have composite classes now have 2,000 such classes—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Lady is not setting a good example with the length of her supplementary question. Hers is the first supplementary question, and I hope that no one will follow her example.

Mr. Millan

The question of teaching standards was negotiated between teachers' organisations and local authorities. I was not a party to the discussions, but my understanding was that the matter of composite classes was exhaustively discussed in these negotiations.

Mr. Dempsey

Does my right hon. Friend recall that when the Labour Government mounted a rescue operation to save the jobs of car workers they earned the admiration of the people of Scotland? It cost £2,000 million to save Leyland and £142 million to save Chrysler. We should not forget the Concorde project which cost £1,000 million. Why cannot we mount a similar operation costing £7.5 million, which I understand is all that is required to put these 2,000 newly-qualified teachers to work?

Mr. Millan

If we were to compare every new demand for public expenditure with demands that had been made in the past, and if we were to say that because public expenditure had been incurred in one area, there was a case for making similar moneys available in an entirely different area—in this case teacher employment—we would be unable to control public expenditure. I do not feel that the public expenditure difficulties with which the Government are faced allow me to accept the kind of easy solution to this problem that my hon. Friend suggests.

Mr. Taylor

Will the Secretary of State give an assurance that his estimate of 2,000 unemployed teachers will not be increased by the further round of public expenditure cuts? Will he ignore the crocodile tears from the Scottish Nationalisation Party, bearing in mind that last night it condoned the spending of £300 million on additional nationalisation when the money could have been used to provide jobs for teachers?

Mr. Millan

I dare say that when prospective redundancy threatened the shipyards on the Clyde the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) would be the first to demand Government intervention and public expenditure. I am, however, answering a Question about teachers, not about shipbuilding.

Mr. Canavan

Am I right in assuming that even £5 million might be enough to employ the 2,000 teachers threatened with the dole queue? Will my right hon. Friend consider my suggestion for raising that money? If he took the £2.25 million which was not used up by the designated schools scheme and, say, £500,000 from the job creation scheme, together with a couple of million pounds from the defence budget, it would leave only about £250,000 to find. That is about the sum given in aid to the official Opposition parties, including whatever went to the hon. Member for Banff (Mr. Watt).

Mr. Millan

My hon. Friend is characteristically ingenious. I can tell him that under the job creation scheme 143 jobs have been approved and proposals involving a further 450 jobs are under consideration.

Mr. Russell Johnston

Will the Secretary of State finally clear up the question whether this whole situation is due to miscalculation by his Department three years ago or to the fact that current public expenditure pressures make it impossible, in the Government's judgment, to realise the projected teacher-pupil ratio intentions of three years ago?

Mr. Millan

There is no diminution in the projected teacher-pupil ratios in Scot- land, which will be better next year than ever before. It might be said that three years ago, when I was not responsible for these matters, the number of students entering colleges should have been considerably reduced. Public expenditure implications are at the heart of this matter, and I have never sought to disguise that fact from the House.

Mr. Galbraith

Is the Secretary of State really saying that Scottish schools are so well staffed that they do not need extra teachers, or is it a question of money? If it is the latter, would it not be better to save money by slowing down the modernisation programme for schools and using it to assist teachers who have already been trained and who, I believe, are needed in our schools?

Mr. Millan

It is not possible to spend money out of the school building budget—which itself is already under considerable strain—on providing additional teaching places. I do not say that in happier circumstances we could not profitably employ more teachers in Scotland, but despite the restrictions we shall have the best-ever teacher-pupil ratios.

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