HC Deb 30 June 1976 vol 914 cc389-91
32. Mr. Teddy Taylor

asked the Lord Advocate if he has yet completed his inquiries into the costs involved to public funds in the recent Rotary Tools case in Glasgow.

The Lord Advocate

Yes, Sir. The total sum paid in respect of Crown witnesses was £2,051.16. This sum includes the expenses at both the precognition and trial stages. One procurator fiscal depute carried out the investigation into the case on my behalf, with the assistance of police officers. Clerical and typing staff were also involved. It is impossible to quantify the cost of their work on this case. These are matters for which I am ministerially responsible.

I have ascertained that the sum paid in respect of jurors in this case was £3,432.05.

The foregoing figures do not include defence expenses.

Mr. Taylor

Since the defence expenses are what we are really concerned about, will the Lord Advocate make an endeavour to find out what has been the cost to the taxpayer, through legal aid, of the defence in this case? Will he investigate the possibility of trials of this sort being carried out at less cost to total public funds?

The Lord Advocate

On the last point, one should look at this matter in context. This trial lasted about five weeks. That is unusual in a Scottish trial on indictment, whereas south of the border trials of that length, and a great deal longer, are relatively commonplace. For all that, we endeavour to keep the length of trials in Scotland, and the cost to the public, at a minimum. I think that on the whole we do this very successfully. In regard to the earlier part of the question, the position is that the Legal Aid Fund is independently administered by the bodies authorised to administer it under statute, and is not, therefore, a matter of ministerial responsibility.

Mr. Alexander Wilson

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that this case clearly portrays once more the high cost of one of the less acceptable faces of capitalism—in other words, the high cost of private enterprise?

The Lord Advocate

I would say, of course, that the crimes involved, and what was done that led to the trial, certainly amounted to something that was contrary to the public interest, and contrary to the economic interest. The figures that I have disclosed indicate that the public expenditure involved in setting matters right was comparatively small. I should add that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr.

Buchanan) raised this matter with me before the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) tabled his Question, and I hope to reply to my hon. Friend very shortly.

Mr. Buchanan

Will my right hon. and learned Friend please include, in his reply to that letter, the cost of legal aid whether or not he has ministerial responsibility? I take it that he has the facility for acquiring that information, because it is the greatest single expense of the trial and one that we should look at closely.

The Lord Advocate

I appreciate the anxiety of many hon. Members in this matter. I cannot undertake to obtain that information but I certainly undertake to do the best I can. The difficulty is that the fund is managed and the moneys are disbursed under statutory authority, and the money comes from public funds. The difficulty is that the accountability for it has all been provided for in statute, and it is difficult to break down the bulk figures. However, I shall see what can be done.

Mrs. Winifred Ewing

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the cost of legal aid per case or per hour, or however one analyses it, for cases in Scotland is conducted in a much more economic way than it is in England? Does he not also agree that, having delegated the administration to the Law Society, a great saving to public funds is achieved, because the Law Society carried out all the administration involved? Does he not also agree that the Law Society would no doubt be prepared to provide this information, but that it simply will not yet be available?

The Lord Advocate

I entirely accept the latter point that the hon. Lady made, that these figures are not yet available. I share her tribute to the Law Society for the way in which it carried out a public service in this regard. Beyond that I do not think I can go.