HC Deb 29 June 1976 vol 914 cc355-64

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Pendry.]

11.9 p.m.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton (Edinburgh, West)

I wish to put the case for the residents who reside in Drumbrae, which is an area between Corstorphine and Barnton and Cramond, near Edinburgh airport. I have two letters in my hand signed by Scottish Office Ministers, one of which gives an undertaking to the residents of Drumbrae and the other of which withdraws that undertaking. The first letter, dated 17th May 1975, from the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes)—then Under-Secretary of State for Scotland—said: I am writing to tell you that we shall shortly be informing all Education Authorities of their allocations of investment for new social and recreational projects in 1975/76 and you will be pleased to know that the allocation to Edinburgh Education Authority will include an allowance for the Drumbrae Community Centre. Imagine my amazement when I received a second letter on 5th May 1976 from the present Under-Secretary of State—the hon. Member for Glasgow, Queen's Park (Mr. McElhone)—saying: The review of social and recreational projects proposed for 1976/77 has now been completed.…I am afraid, however, that it has not been possible to make an allocation to Lothian Regional Council for the proposed community centre at Drumbrae. The Minister will doubtless argue that, at a time of very severe financial stringency, he does not feel bound by the undertakings of another Minister. But the Government were overspending and overborrowing more than a year ago, when the original undertaking was given. Public expenditure cuts were necessary then, just as they are today. It should not be asking too much of any Minister with a sense of responsibility to see 12 to 15 months ahead.

However, it appears that the Government have been operating through guess- work, and many constituents in Drumbrae feel they have been seriously let down by the Government, who cannot fulfil the undertaking they gave. When an undertaking is made by a Government to a community, it raises hopes and expectations. The community plans ahead on the basis of the undertaking. Residents naturally expect that a Government will keep their word. They consider that no responsible Government would give an undertaking when they had not thought through the implications and were not in a position to honour the undertaking.

If a private individual gives an undertaking and fails to fulfil it, he may be liable for damages under an action for breach of contract. Why should the Government be allowed to act less responsibly than a private individual? I ask the Government to clarify their future intentions in regard to this project and give an assurance that the venture has merely been postponed.

I am glad to see my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) here tonight. I hope that if there are a few minutes available and he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, he will state the views of the Conservative Party in Scotland on this matter.

The case for a community centre in Drumbrae was accepted as long ago as March 1973 by the education committee of the Edinburgh Town Council, and the essence of that case rests on two grounds.

First, there are no adequate facilities in Drumbrae, apart from the school, which is constantly over-subscribed. As well as the Drumbrae Residents Association, under the able leadership of Mr. Graham Burns, there are about 70 groups in the area, including a large number of youth and other representative organisations. These groups fall into four categories.

For the very young, there are playgroups. The youth and supporting organisations include 13 packs of Brownies, 10 companies of Guides, two groups of Ranger Guides, seven Cub Scout packs, five Scout troops, one Venture Scout unit, three boys' clubs, two girls' clubs, two youth clubs and one Boys' Brigade. In support, there are sporting clubs, including badminton, karate and swimming. There are also drama and dance clubs, in which young people take part. The third group includes men's clubs and women's clubs. Lastly, there are the clubs for senior citizens.

Many of these organisations have to keep a waiting list, because in many cases the demand for membership considerably exceeds the facilities available. Drumbrae Residents Association has to turn away members because the school accommodation that they use cannot cope with the large numbers who wish to take part in the association's activities.

The second part of the case for a new centre is that there is no central focal point in Drumbrae. Clubs have to meet at as many as four locations, and the result is that they find it almost impossible to share resources—because of the lack of storage and other facilities—and very hard to develop programmes.

If the Lothian Regional Council puts to the Government next year that its first priority is a community centre at Drumbrae, will the Government fulfil their previous undertaking? Very recently the Lothian Regional Council asked the Minister for an additional allocation. As the Conservative Party supports public expenditure cuts, I could not support that application, but I feel able to support the claim that this project should receive the necessary assistance next year when it comes up for consideration by the Government. The Lothian Regional Council considers that this project should receive more priority than any other project in the social and recreational programme. Will the Minister give an assurance to the organisations and residents in Drumbrae? Will he say that the Government will be prepared to fulfil their undertakings in due course?

11.16 p.m.

Mr. Teddy Taylor (Glasgow, Cathcart)

I am grateful to the Under-Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton) for giving me the opportunity of saying a few words on this important subject. I think that the Minister will agree that my hon. Friend could not have done more to represent the views and feelings of his constituents on the important issue of the community centre at Drumbrae. He has brought the matter to the fore on behalf of his constituents. We can understand the sense of outrage but he and the local people feel at being let down. I think that the Minister must agree that this is not just one of the many cases put before him of Members asking for something for their area. I think he will accept that this is a special case.

A pledge was given by the Government, and the pledge has apparently been abandoned. I ask the hon. Gentleman three questions. First, in view of the special situation of the pledge being given, will he be willing as soon as possible to visit Drumbrae to assess the situation for himself? Secondly, is he able to make any pledge about giving priority to the scheme, in view of the pledge that was given previously by his predecessor? Thirdly, will he tell the House how, after tonight's vote, he can justify spending £300 million on more nationalisation, which will mean £300 million less to spend on important social ventures like the Drumbrae community centre?

I can tell my hon. Friend that when once again we have a Conservative Government we shall spend a lot less money on non-essentials and more money on essentials such as the important community centre at Drumbrae. During the golden years of the Conservative Administration, which I know the Minister will remember, so much was done for Scotland and its people. We achieved that record because we spent money on things that mattered and did not waste it on things that caused damage. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will be able to give my hon. Friend a good answer tonight, bearing in mind the valiant way in which he has fought for his constituents and their interests.

11.18 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Frank McElhone)

I do not disagree for a moment with the view expressed by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) about the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton), even though he happens to represent a different party from my own.

I welcome the opportunity to make clear the Scottish Office position in regard to the proposed Drumbrae community centre. The hon. Gentleman, my predecessors and I have had extensive correspondence about the centre, but some misunderstanding seems to have arisen and I think it will be helpful if I outline briefly the rôle of Scottish Ministers in regard to it.

Proposals for a community centre at Drumbrae were first put to the Scottish Education Department by Edinburgh Education Authority in August 1973 when it submitted a social and recreational building programme for 1974–77, which proposed that the centre should start in October 1974. As hon. Members will remember, the Conservative Government, in October 1973, introduced a moratorium on new building proposals because of the serious economic position. When this Government took office early in 1974 they found it necessary, in view of the continuing economic difficulties, to confirm the decision of their predecessors to reduce public expenditure in 1974–75. Capital investment on new projects had therefore to be restricted and, as the hon. Member was informed in a letter of 23rd August 1974, it was decided that the limited investment available for social and recreational building should go to facilities being provided as an integral part of schools which were urgently needed and were due to start before 30th June 1975. It was not possible, therefore, to authorise a start on the Drumbrae community centre in 1974–75.

It is not part of our general policy necessarily to give priority to community facilities associated with schools over facilities provided in, for example, freestanding community centres. What matters is the individual needs of individual areas. There are obvious advantages in associating community facilities with schools, such as dual use of the whole school complex by school pupils and the adult community, but there are many areas which already have schools but which lack community facilities. These have to be provided as local circumstances dictate; sometimes attached to a school, sometimes separate.

When we came to consider the social and recreational building programme for 1975–76, we decided not to ask authorities to submit a programme for that year, since there was a considerable backlog of projects from the previous year which had not been authorised to start. We therefore selected from among these pro- jects those which seemed to us to merit the highest priority and allocated investment accordingly. The allocation to Edinburgh Education Authority included an element in respect of Drumbrae community centre.

We did not, however, require the authorities to accept our order of priorities, and I think it would certainly have been wrong for us to do so. It is important to remember that the reorganisation of local government was about to take effect, and it would clearly have been wrong to have forced the new authorities to accept an order of priorities laid down by their predecessors or by the Government. In order to allow them to develop their own priorities for 1975–76, we gave them discretion to substitute other projects for those referred to in our letters of allocation, provided that the total value of the allocations was not exceeded. Lothian Region Education Authority drew up its own list of projects for 1975–76 and, unfortunately, these did not include the Drumbrae community centre. The authority was free to make this decision, and we did not see fit to interfere.

Now we come to 1976–77, with its persistent economic difficulties. The Drumbrae community centre was among four social and recreational projects submitted by Lothian Regional Council for a start in 1976–77, but because of the severe restraints in capital investment and the need to reserve sufficient investment for the continuance of work on projects which had started prior to 1st April 1976 and had not been completed by that date, only a very limited amount of capital investment was available for new projects. The hon. Gentleman will accept that when projects are started, we are committed to complete them and this uses up a substantial amount of the allocation for that year. We considered very carefully indeed how this could best be allocated and, in the end, we authorised eight new social and recreational projects in the whole of Scotland; two in the Highland Region; one in the Lothian Region; and five in Strathclyde.

In selecting the projects, we had to have special regard to community facilities which form integral parts of badly-needed schools—which would have had to be redesigned if the community facilities were included. If we had left it much later, this would have delayed the addition of the project of the school and the expenditure would have been heavier. For this reason we authorised Lothian, Strathclyde and the Highland Regions to start community facilities respectively at Howden (Ladywell) High School, Livingston; Kirkhill Senior Secondary School; and Charleston Senior Secondary School, Inverness and Tain Royal Academy. The remaining four projects were community education centres in Strathclyde, our policy being to try first to make provision in areas where, in our view, the social need is greatest. This is a far from easy thing to do. Judgments may differ, but it seemed to us that there were areas where the need was greater than even Drumbrae.

I am pleased to see the hon. Member for Cathcart sitting in at Adjournment debates. I have tried to provide as much information as possible, and I would tell him and his hon. Friend that the areas mentioned for Strathclyde are Cranhill, Viewpark, Uddingston, Dalmuir, Clydebank and Greenock, which is a community wing to a school.

I understand from the Press that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West has accused the Government of not honouring pledges given by my predecessor. He repeated that accusation tonight, referring to the letter of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) of 17th March 1975. I understand from the hon. Gentleman that that letter indicated that my hon. Friend had given a promise that the centre would be started. But in my letter of 31st January this year I said that the authority—the Edinburgh Corporation—was told that it or its successor authority, the regional authority, could substitute other projects for those named in the allocation letter, provided the total value of the allocation was not exceeded.

Lothian Region took over, and decided in its submission to us not to include Drumbrae that year, but included it for consideration this year. It was one of four projects submitted by the Lothians, which gave it a high priority. We had regard to giving the one in Livingston a priority over the hon. Gentleman's, because it was attached to a school, and we gave priority—

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton

I have received information in writing that the project will receive the Lothian Regional Council's top priority for next year. Will the Minister honour the undertakings at that stage?

Mr. MeElhone

I have the greatest respect for any hon. Member who looks after his constituency. I willingly say that also about the hon. Member for Cathcart, who is also an excellent constituency Member. I understand their feelings, but I must balance that priority against competing demands from other authorities. No Minister in this difficult period of financial constraint could in all sincerity give an absolute commitment. When the allocations come up again I shall give the proposal the most serious consideration.

I take full account of the cogent way in which the hon. Gentleman advanced his argument, the pressures on the area, and the number of clubs. It is obviously a great community area. I am a great respecter of communities.

I can give only a glimmer of hope, and not a promise. One must keep feeding projects once they are started and go on to finish them. There are many projects all over Scotland. There may be a possibility of some finishing now which were started when the hon. Member for Cathcart was in office. I have not checked the progress of all of them. There is often slippage. There may be an opportunity. I do not want to create any more false dawns—there are too many in this political world. I shall consider the matter. However. I cannot give a total commitment. I do not deny that there is a need for a community centre in that area, but there are similar pressing needs in many of the areas in Strathclyde and Dundee and other parts of the country.

Unfortunately, I must make a choice. There is a long list in front of me when I make choices. The Gorbals leisure centre came up like a flashing beacon. We must take a balanced view. I do not say that Queens Park or the Gorbals is my constituency—rather I regard Scotland as my constituency. I must look at the whole position and try to be fair and impartial in my judgment.

The hon. Member for Cathcart asked some questions. I visit many places. I cannot give an absolute commitment to visit Drumbrae. He asked me to give a pledge. Although I cannot give an absolute commitment I shall give the matter serious consideration.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the previous votes on the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill. Those votes, in the view of the Labour Party, will preserve many jobs, create more pay packets and provide facilities for the community in the future. I am tempted to debate the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill again. That would be more enjoyable to me, as a politician. However, I rest my case.

I thank the hon. Member for Cathcart for playing his part on the Front Bench. I assure the Opposition of my deepest consideration—I give no total commitment—for the Dumbrae community centre when the next allocation comes up.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-eight minutes to Twelve o'clock.