HC Deb 23 June 1976 vol 913 cc1745-57
Mr. Denzil Davies

I beg to move Amendment No. 2, in page 2, line 10 leave out from "time" to "and" in line 11.

The purpose of the amendment is to reverse Opposition Amendment No. 29 which was carried against the Government in Standing Committee. The effect of that amendment was to reduce the deemed disposal consideration by an amount equal to what would have been the incidental cost had there been an actual sale. The Government amendment restores the original position, in which the interest concerned shall be deemed to have been disposed of for a consideration equal to market value without allowance for purely notional expenses.

The Opposition carried an amendment in Committee which would have provided that costs which had not been incurred on the deemed disposal and reacquisition would have been allowable in computing the tax at that point. Although there would not have been a conveyance of the land there was to be a deeming provision so that the costs of that conveyance would have been deducted from the calculation of tax. This is not the intention of the legislation. The amendment would often give the taxpayer a double relief because on eventual sale he would get the costs again on that conveyance but he would not pay the tax twice and would only pay the extra amount of tax on Development value over and above the value at the time of deemed disposal.

If the amendment were to remain we would be giving double relief in respect of costs which were not incurred. I therefore ask the House to reverse the Committee's decision.

Mr. Graham Page

I should have thought that the Minister would take his defeat graciously and not try to reinstate in the Bill the subject of a Committee defeat. If there is to be deemed disposal there should be deemed costs relative to that disposal so that we get the true figure. I strongly object to the Government steam-rollering out of the Bill what was put in by the Committee. I hope that my hon. Friends will support me in opposing the Government amendment.

11 p.m.

Mr. Ridley

I object to the treatment being meted out to the Minister by the Government Front Bench. He has been here for seven hours today—following a seven-hour stint yesterday—without relief or assistance from senior colleagues. He has had to defend the Government's lousy proposals single-handed.

The last time I raised this matter, I said the Minister had had no food, water or rest. He replied that he had some water available, but I see that even the decanter which held the water is now empty. By the way, the decanter is not marked to show hiw much water it contained in accordance with the resolution of the House earlier this week.

Mr. Budgen

Is my hon. Friend aware that if the Minister were an animal he would not be allowed to travel on the railways in the conditions in which he is now working?

Mr. Ridley

When I see the stranded whales who have come to support the Minister with their presence, if not their voices, I feel that the animal analogy used by my Friend is very apt. Certainly if the Minister were a lorry driver, he would by now have driven more miles than would be lawful and would be allowed to drive the Bill into the night.

Our sympathy is entirely with the Minister, we feel he has been badly treated. if there is another Minister within earshot who understands the Bill, I appeal to him to relieve the Minister of State and let him get a square meal. He needs some beans on toast. He cannot be expected to go on defending the Government amendment after amendment, day after day and night after night. If there needs to be a by-election in the Minister's constituency shortly—which is the last thing we want—it will be entirely the fault of the Government.

The Minister is losing his grip due to extreme fatigue. His attempt to delete an amendment passed in Committee is a mistake. If we are to have a deemed disposal, we should surely have deemed costs to be chargeable against tax. I hate the word "deemed" in legislation. There should be no "deemed" anything for tax purposes. However, if it is to be fair for the Inland Revenue to deem that a gain or profit has been made, it

must be fair for the taxpayer to deem that expenses have been incurred. In many cases they will have been incurred.

In view of the Committee's decision and the obvious wish of the House to have the amendment retained in the Bill, I hope the Minister will think again before creating this injustice for the taxpayer.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 288, Noes 257.

Division No. 195.] AYES [11.04 p.m.
Abse, Leo de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Allaun, Frank Dell, Rt Hon Edmund Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Anderson, Donald Dempsey, James Hunter, Adam
Archer, Peter Doig, Peter Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill)
Armstrong, Ernest Dormand, J. D. Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)
Ashton, Joe Douglas-Mann, Bruce Jaskson, Colin (Brighouse)
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Dunn, James A. Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)
Atkinson, Norman Dunnett, Jack Janner, Greville
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth Jay, Rt Hon Douglas
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Eadie, Alex Jeger, Mrs Lena
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) Edge, Geoff Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Bates, Alf Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) John, Brynmor
Bean, R. E. Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) Johnson, James (Hull West)
Beith, A. J. Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Johnson, Walter (Derby S)
Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood English, Michael Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Ennals, David Judd, Frank
Bidwell, Sydney Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Kaufman, Gerald
Bishop, E. S. Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Kelley, Richard
Blenkinsop, Arthur Ewing, Harry (Stirling) Kerr, Russell
Boardman, H. Faulds, Andrew Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. Kinnock, Neil
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Flannery, Martin Lambie, David
Boyden, James (Bish Auck) Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Lamborn, Harry
Bradley, Tom Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Lamond, James
Bray, Dr Jeremy Foot, Rt Hon Michael Latham, Arthur (Paddington)
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Ford, Ben Leadbitter, Ted
Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) Forrester, John Lee, John
Brown, Ronald (Hackney S) Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)
Buchan, Norman Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) Lever, Rt Hon Harold
Buchanan, Richard Freeson, Reginald Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) Freud, Clement Lipton, Marcus
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Garrett, John (Norwich S) Litterick, Tom
Campbell, Ian Garrett, W. E. (Walisend) Lomas, Kenneth
Canavan, Dennis George, Bruce Loyden, Eddie
Cant, R. B. Gilbert, Dr John Luard, Evan
Carmichael, Neil Ginsburg, David Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)
Carter, Ray Golding, John Mabon, Dr J. Dickson
Carter-Jones, Lewis Gould, Bryan McCartney, Hugh
Cartwright, John Gourlay, Harry McElhone, Frank
Clemitson, Ivor Graham, Ted MacFarquhar, Roderick
Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) Grant, George (Morpeth) McGuire, Michael (Ince)
Cohen, Stanley Grant, John (Islington C) Mackenzie, Gregor
Coleman, Donald Grimond, Rt Hon J. Mackintosh, John P.
Colquhoun, Ms Maureen Grocott, Bruce Maclennan, Robert
Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) Hamilton, James (Bothwell) McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)
Corbett, Robin Hardy, Peter McNamara, Kevin
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Harper, Joseph Madden, Max
Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) Magee, Bryan
Cronin, John Hart, Rt Hon Judith Mahon, Simon
Cryer, Bob Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Mallalleu, J. P. W.
Cunningham, G. (Islington S) Hatton, Frank Marks, Kenneth
Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) Hayman, Mrs Helene Marquand, David
Dalyell, Tam Heffer, Eric S. Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)
Davidson, Arthur Hooley, Frank Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) Howell, Rt Hon Denis Maynard, Miss Joan
Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Meacher, Michael
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) Mellish, Rt Hon Robert
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Huckfield, Les Mendelson, John
Deakins, Eric Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) Mikardo, Ian
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Hughes, Mark (Durham) Millan, Bruce
Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) Robinson, Geoffrey Tomlinson, John
Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) Roderick, Caerwyn Tomney, Frank
Molloy, William Rodgers, George (Chorley) Torney, Tom
Moonman, Eric Rodgers, William (Stockton) Tuck, Raphael
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Rooker, J. W. Urwin, T. W.
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Morris, Rt Hon J.(Aberavon) Ross, Rt. Hon W. (Kilmarnock) Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
Moyle, Roland Rowlands, Ted Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)
Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick Sandelson, Neville Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King Sedgemore, Brian Ward, Michael
Newens, Stanley Selby, Harry Watkins, David
Noble, Mike Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) Watkinson, John
Oakes, Gordon Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne) Weetch, Ken
Ogden, Eric Shore, Rt Hon Peter Weitzman, David
O'Halloran, Michael Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C) Wellbeloved, James
Orbach, Maurice Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) White, Frank R. (Bury)
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) White, James (Pollok)
Ovenden, John Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) Whitehead, Phillip
Owen, Dr David Sillars, James Whitlock, William
Palmer, Arthur Silverman, Julius Wigley, Dafydd
Park, George Skinner, Dennis Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Parker, John Small, William Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Parry, Robert Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)
Pavitt, Laurie Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)
Peart, Rt Hon Fred Spearing, Nigel Williams, Sir Thomas
Pendry, Tom Stallard, A. W. Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Penhaligon, David Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) Wilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton)
Perry, Ernest Strang, Gavin Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Phipps, Dr Colin Strauss, Rt Hon G. R. Wise, Mrs Audrey
Prentice, Rt Hon Reg Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley Woodall, Alec
Prescott, John Swain, Thomas Woof, Robert
Price, C. (Lewisham W) Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) Wrigglesworth, Ian
Price, William (Rugby) Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) Young, David (Bolton E)
Radice, Giles Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) Thorne, Stan (Preston South) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Richardson, Miss Jo Tierney, Sydney Mr. Peter Snape and
Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Tinn, James Mr. David Stoddart.
Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Adley, Robert Corrie, John Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Alison, Michael Critchley, Julian Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Crouch, David Hampson, Dr Keith
Arnold, Tom Crowder, F. P. Hannam, John
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford) Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss
Awdry, Daniel Dean, Paul (N Somerset) Hastings, Stephen
Baker, Kenneth Dodsworth, Geoffrey Havers, Sir Michael
Banks, Robert Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Hawkins, Paul
Bell, Ronald Drayson, Burnaby Hayhoe, Barney
Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Heseltine, Michael
Benyon, W. Dunlop, John Hicks, Robert
Berry, Hon Anthony Durant, Tony Higgins, Terence L.
Biffen, John Dykes, Hugh Holland, Philip
Biggs-Davison, John Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Hordern, Peter
Blaker, Peter Elliott, Sir William Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Body, Richard Emery, Peter Howell, David (Guildford)
Boscawen, Hon Robert Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)
Bottomley, Peter Eyre, Reginald Hunt, David (Wirral)
Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) Fairbairn, Nicholas Hunt, John
Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) Fairgrieve, Russell Hurd, Douglas
Bradford, Rev Robert Farr, John Hutchison, Michael Clark
Braine, Sir Bernard Fell, Anthony Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)
Brittan, Leon Fisher, Sir Nigel James, David
Brocklebank-Fowler, C. Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd)
Brotherton, Michael Fookes, Miss Janet Jessel, Toby
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Forman, Nigel Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)
Bryan, Sir Paul Fox, Marcus Jones, Arthur (Daventry)
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Fry, Peter Jopling, Michael
Buck, Antony Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith
Budgen, Nick Gardiner, George (Reigate) Kaberry, Sir Donald
Bulmer, Esmond Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) Kershaw, Anthony
Carlisle, Mark Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) Kimball, Marcus
Carson, John Glyn, Dr Alan King, Evelyn (South Dorset)
Chalker, Mrs Lynda Goodhart, Philip King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Gorst, John Kitson, Sir Timothy
Clark, William (Croydon S) Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) Knight, Mrs Jill
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) Knox, David
Clegg, Walter Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Lamont, Norman
Cockcroft, John Gray, Hamish Lane, David
Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) Griffiths, Eldon Langford-Holt, Sir John
Cope, John Grist, Ian Lawrence, Ivan
Cordle, John H. Grylls, Michael Lawson, Nigel
Cormack, Patrick Hall, Sir John Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Oppenheim, Mrs Sally Smith, Dudley (Warwick)
Lloyd, Ian Osborn, John Spence, John
Loveridge, John Page, John (Harrow West) Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)
Luce, Richard Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
McCrindle, Robert Parkinson, Cecil Sproat, Iain
McCusker, H. Pattie, Geoffrey Stainton, Keith
Macfarlane, Neil Percival, Ian Stanbrook, Ivor
MacGregor, John Peyton, Rt Hon John Stanley, John
Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Pink, R. Bonner Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)
McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) Price, David (Eastleigh) Stokes, John
Madel, David Prior, Rt Hon James Stradling Thomas, J.
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Pym, Rt Hon Francis Tapsell, Peter
Marten, Neil Raison, Timothy Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)
Mates, Michael Rathbone, Tim Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
Maude, Angus Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter Tebbit, Norman
Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) Temple-Morris, Peter
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Reid, George Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)
Mayhew, Patrick Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) Townsend, Cyril D.
Meyer, Sir Anthony Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) Trotter, Neville
Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Ridley, Hon Nicholas Tugendhat, Christopher
Mills, Peter Ridsdale, Julian van Straubenzee, W. R.
Miscampbell, Norman Rifkind, Malcolm Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Rippon, Rt. Hon Geoffrey Viggers, Peter
Moate, Roger Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) Wakeham, John
Molyneaux, James Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Walder, David (Clitheroe)
Monro, Hector Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)
Montgomery, Fergus Ross, William (Londonderry) Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek
Moore, John (Croydon C) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) Wall, Patrick
More, Jasper (Ludlow) Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) Walters, Dennis
Morgan, Geraint Royle, Sir Anthony Watt, Hamish
Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral Sainsbury, Tim Weatherill, Bernard
Morris, Michael (Northampton S) St. John-Stevas, Norman Wells, John
Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Scott, Nicholas Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) Scott-Hopkins, James Wiggin, Jerry
Mudd, David Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) Winterton, Nicholas
Neave, Airey Shelton, William (Streatham) Wood, Rt Hon Richard
Nelson, Anthony Shepherd, Colin Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)
Neubert, Michael Shersby, Michael Younger, Hon George
Newton, Tony Silvester, Fred
Normanton, Tom Sims, Roger TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Nott, John Sinclair, Sir George Mr. Spencer Le Merchant and
Onslow, Cranley Skeet, T. H. H. Mr. Carol Mather.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Mr. Denzil Davies

I beg to move Amendment No. 3, in page 2, line 19, leave out 'subsection (1) above' and insert 'this Act'.

This is a drafting amendment to make the interpretation Clause, now Clause 47, a comprehensive index of terms used in the Bill. As a result, Clause 47 now assigns to the term "major interests" the definition in Clause 2(3). The need for a comprehensive index was raised in Committee by the Opposition. We met most of their criticisms in Committee but could not do so in this case until now.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Denzil Davies

I beg to move Amendment No. 5, in page 3, line 4, leave out 'fifty' and insert 'thirty-five'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine)

It will be convenient to discuss at the same time the following amendments:

No. 6, in page 3, line 4, leave out 'fifty' and insert 'twenty-five'.

Government Amendment No. 7.

No. 8, in page 3, line 8, leave out 'of less than fifty' and insert 'not exceeding twenty-five'.

Government Amendment No. 9.

No. 10, in page 3, line 17, leave out 'fifty' and insert 'twenty-five'.

Government Amendment No. 123.

No. 124, in Schedule 1, page 82, line 5, leave out '50' and insert 'twenty-five'.

Mr. Davies

These amendments result from the debates in Committee.

As the Bill stands, there is a major interest even though the lease to which the reversion is subject is not a long lease. Under Clause 2(4) a lease is a long lease if it has more than 50 years to run at the date of the deemed disposal. The amendment seeks to reduce this period to 35 years, thus allowing more leases to qualify as long leases.

The other amendments ensure that the widening of relief does not affect the rule which regards reversions on leases as major interests and so subject to deemed disposal procedure. There was criticism in Committee to the effect that 50 years was too long a period. It was said that leases with reversions of 50 years were not worth much. As a result of those criticisms we looked at the matter again. These amendments seek to reduce the period to 35 years, which we believe is more reasonable.

We held discussions with the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. As a result of representations and discussions, we concluded that 35 years was the right period for the reversion to be a major interest for the purposes of the legislation.

Mr. Graham Page

We considered that as the Bill stood 50 years was a ridiculous period. We therefore proposed an amendment to reduce the period of 50 years to one of 25 years, as being more consonant with the value of the reversion to a lease becoming a major interest in the property.

At this stage of the Bill we have tried to compromise a little further—but not merely for the sake of compromise. As a result of the advice that we have received we believe that 25 years is the right period. The Minister proposed the period of 35 years. He puts the Opposition in a little difficulty. If we vote against his amendment—which seeks to substitute the figure 35 for the figure 50—it will appear that we wish to retain the period of 50 years. The only method open to us to register our objection is to vote against the Minister's amendment to insert "35". We wish to insert "25". I do not think that the Minister's proposal sufficiently meets our wishes.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 280, Noes 266.

Division No.196.] AYES [11. 23 p.m.
Abse, Leo Cunningham, G. (Islington S) Graham, Ted
Allaun, Frank Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) Grant, George (Morpeth)
Anderson, Donald Dalyell, Tam Grant, John (Islington C)
Archer, Peter Davidson, Arthur Grocott, Bruce
Armstrong, Ernest Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) Hardy, Peter
Ashton, Joe Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) Harper, Joseph
Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) Davies, Ifor (Gower) Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)
Atkinson, Norman Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Hart, Rt Hon Judith
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Deakins, Eric Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Hatton, Frank
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Hayman, Mrs Helene
Bates, Alf Dell, Rt Hon Edmund Heffer, Eric S.
Bean, R. E. Dempsey, James Hooley, Frank
Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood Doig, Peter Howell, Rt Hon Denis
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Dormand, J. D. Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)
Bidwell, Sydney Douglas-Mann, Bruce Huckfield, Les
Bishop, E. S. Duffy, A. E. P. Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)
Blenkinsop, Arthur Dunn, James A. Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Boardman, H. Dunnett, Jack Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur Eadie, Alex Hunter, Adam
Boyden, James (Bish Auck) Edge, Geoff Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill)
Bradley, Tom Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)
Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) English, Michael Janner, Greville
Brown, Ronald (Hackney S) Ennals, David Jay, Rt Hon Douglas
Buchan, Norman Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) Jeger, Mrs Lena
Buchanan, Richard Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)
Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) Ewing, Harry (Stirling) John, Brynmor
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Faulds, Andrew Johnson, James (Hull West)
Campbell, Ian Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. Johnson, Walter (Derby S)
Canavan, Dennis Flannery, Martin Jones, Dan (Burnley)
Cant, R. B. Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) Judd, Frank
Carmichael, Neil Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Kaufman, Gerald
Carter, Ray Foot, Rt Hon Michael Kelley, Richard
Carter-Jones, Lewis Ford, Ben Kerr, Russell
Cartwright, John Forrester, John Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Clemitson, Ivor Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) Kinnock, Neil
Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) Lambie, David
Cohen, Stanley Freeson, Reginald Lamborn, Harry
Coleman, Donald Garrett, John (Norwich S) Lamond, James
Colquhoun, Ms Maureen Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Latham, Arthur (Paddington)
Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) George, Bruce Leadbitter, Ted
Corbett, Robin Gilbert, Dr John Lee, John
Cox, Thomas (Tooting) Ginsburg, David Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)
Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) Golding, John Lever, Rt Hon Harold
Cronin, John Gould, Bryan Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Cryer, Bob Gourlay, Harry Lipton, Marcus
Litterick, Tom Owen, Dr David Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.
Lomas, Kenneth Palmer, Arthur Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Loyden, Eddie Park, George Swain, Thomas
Luard, Evan Parker, John Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) Parry, Robert Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)
Mabon, Dr J. Dickson Pavitt, Laurie Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)
McCartney, Hugh Peart, Rt Hon Fred Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
McElhone, Frank Perry, Ernest Tierney, Sydney
MacFarquhar, Roderick Phipps, Dr Colin Tinn, James
McGuire, Michael (Ince) Prentice, Rt Hon Reg Tomlinson, John
Mackenzie, Gregor Prescott, John Tomney, Frank
Mackintosh, John P. Price, C. (Lewisham W) Torney, Tom
Maclennan, Robert Price, William (Rugby) Tuck, Raphael
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) Radice, Giles Urwin, T. W.
McNamara, Kevin Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Madden, Max Richardson, Miss Jo Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)
Magee, Bryan Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)
Mahon, Simon Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) Walker, Terry (Kingswood)
Marks, Kenneth Robinson, Geoffrey Ward, Michael
Marquand, David Roderick, Caerwyn Watkins, David
Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Rodgers, George (Chorley) Watkinson, John
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) Rodgers, William (Stockton) Weetch, Ken
Maynard, Miss Joan Rooker, J. W. Weitzman, David
Meacher, Michael Ross, Rt. Hon W. (Kilmarnock) Wellbeloved, James
Mellish, Rt Hon Robert Rowlands, Ted White, Frank R. (Bury)
Mendelson, John Sandelson, Neville White, James (Pollok)
Mikardo, Ian Sedgemore, Brian Whitehead, Phillip
Millan, Bruce Selby, Harry Whitlock, William
Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne) Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Molloy, William Shore, Rt Hon Peter Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)
Moonman, Eric Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C) Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)
Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) Williams, Sir Thomas
Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Morris, Rt Hon J.(Aberavon) Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) Wilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton)
Moyle, Roland Sillars, James Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick Silverman, Julius Wise, Mrs Audrey
Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King Skinner, Dennis Woodall, Alec
Newens, Stanley Small, William Woof, Robert
Noble, Mike Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) Wrigglesworth, Ian
Oakes, Gordon Snape, Peter Young, David (Bolton E)
Ogden, Eric Spearing, Nigel
O'Halloran, Michael Stallard, A. W. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Orbach, Maurice Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) Mr. James Hamilton and
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Stoddart, David Mr. Tom Pendry
Ovenden, John Strang, Gavin
Adley, Robert Chalker, Mrs Lynda Fry, Peter
Alison, Michael Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Clark, William (Croydon S) Gardiner, George (Reigate)
Arnold, Tom Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Clegg, Walter Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham)
Awdry, Daniel Cockcroft, John Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)
Baker, Kenneth Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) Glyn, Dr Alan
Banks, Robert Cope, John Goodhart, Philip
Beith, A. J. Cordle, John H. Goodlad, Alastair
Bell, Ronald Cormack, Patrick Gorst, John
Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) Corrie, John Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)
Benyon, W. Crouch, David Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)
Berry, Hon Anthony Crowder, F. P. Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)
Biffen, John Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford) Gray, Hamish
Biggs-Davison, John Dean, Paul (N Somerset) Griffiths, Eldon
Blaker, Peter Dodsworth, Geoffrey Grimond, Rt Hon J.
Body, Richard Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Grist, Ian
Boscawen, Hon Robert Drayson, Burnaby Grylls, Michael
Bottomley, Peter du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Hall, Sir John
Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) Dunlop, John Hall-Davis, A. G. F.
Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) Durant, Tony Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)
Bradford, Rev Robert Dykes, Hugh Hampson, Dr Keith
Braine, Sir Bernard Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) Hannam, John
Brittan, Leon Elliott, Sir William Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss
Brocklebank-Fowler, C. Emery, Peter Hastings, Stephen
Brotherton, Michael Eyre, Reginald Havers, Sir Michael
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) Fairbairn, Nicholas Hawkins, Paul
Bryan, Sir Paul Fairgrieve, Russell Hayhoe, Barney
Buchanan-Smith, Alick Farr, John Heseltine, Michael
Buck, Antony Fell, Anthony Hicks, Robert
Budgen, Nick Fisher, Sir Nigel Higgins, Terence L.
Bulmer, Esmond Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Holland, Philip
Butler, Adam (Bosworth) Fookes, Miss Janet Hooson, Emlyn
Carlisle, Mark Forman, Nigel Hordern, Peter
Carson, John Fox, Marcus Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) Moate, Roger St. John-Stevas, Norman
Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) Molyneaux, James Scott, Nicholas
Hunt, David (Wirral) Monro, Hector Scott-Hopkins, James
Hunt, John Montgomery, Fergus Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Hurd, Douglas Moore, John (Croydon C) Shelton, William (Streatham)
Hutchison, Michael Clark More, Jasper (Ludlow) Shepherd, Colin
Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) Morgan, Geraint Shersby, Michael
James, David Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral Sims, Roger
Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd) Morris, Michael (Northampton S) Sinclair, Sir George
Jessel, Toby Morrison, Charles (Devizes) Skeet, T. H. H.
Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Jones, Arthur (Daventry) Mudd, David Smith, Dudley (Warwick)
Jopling, Michael Neave, Airey Spence, John
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Nelson, Anthony Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)
Kaberry, Sir Donald Neubert, Michael Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Newton, Tony Sproat, Iain
Kershaw, Anthony Normanton, Tom Stainton, Keith
Kimball, Marcus Nott, John Stanbrook, Ivor
King, Evelyn (South Dorset) Onslow, Cranley Stanley, John
King, Tom (Bridgwater) Oppenheim, Mrs Salty Steel, David (Roxburgh)
Kitson, Sir Timothy Osborn, John Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)
Knight, Mrs Jill Page, John (Harrow West) Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Knox, David Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) Stokes, John
Lamont, Norman Parkinson, Cecil Stradling Thomas, J.
Lane, David Pattie, Geoffrey Tapsell, Peter
Langford-Holt, Sir John Penhaligon, David Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)
Lawrence, Ivan Percival, Ian Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)
Lawson, Nigel Peyton, Rt Hon John Tebbit, Norman
Le Marchant, Spencer Pink, R. Bonner Temple-Morris, Peter
Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)
Lloyd, Ian Price, David (Eastleigh) Townsend, Cyril D.
Loveridge, John Prior, Rt Hon James Trotter, Neville
Luce, Richard Pym, Rt Hon Francis Tugendhat, Christopher
McCrindle, Robert Raison, Timothy van Straubenzee, W. R.
McCusker, H. Rathbone, Tim Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Macfarlane, Neil Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter Viggers, Peter
MacGregor, John Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) Wakeham, John
Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Rees-Davies, W. R. Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)
McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) Reid, George Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek
McNair-Wilson, p. (New Forest) Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) Wall, Patrick
Madel, David Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) Watt, Hamish
Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Ridley, Hon Nicholas Weatherill, Bernard
Marten, Neil Ridsdale, Julian Wells, John
Mates, Michael Rifkind, Malcolm Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
Mather, Carol Rippon, Rt. Hon Geoffrey Wiggin, Jerry
Maude, Angus Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) Wigley, Dafydd
Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Winterton, Nicholas
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) Wood, Rt Hon Richard
Mayhew, Patrick Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)
Meyer, Sir Anthony Ross, William (Londonderry) Younger, Hon George
Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Mills, Peter Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Miscampbell, Norman Royle, Sir Anthony Mr. Jim Lester and
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Sainsbury, Tim Mr. Fred Silvester.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 7, in page 3, line 8 leave out "of less than fifty" and insert "not exceeding thirty-five".

No. 9, in page 3, line 17, leave out "fifty" and insert "thirty-five".—[Mr. Denzil Davies.]

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