HC Deb 21 June 1976 vol 913 cc1092-5
30. Mr. Gow

asked the Lord President of the Council how many representations he has received from those living in Scotland to the effect that the Government's devolution plans will lead to the break up of the United Kingdom.

The Minister of State, Privy Council Office (Mr. John Smith)

Six, Sir.

Mr. Gow

Does the Minister accept that he ought not to confuse that comparatively small number with the depth of feeling in Scotland and among Scottish emigrés, like myself? Before he introduces the devolution Bill will he bear in mind that there is a growing body of opinion in the United Kingdom that believes that the measures that the Government have in mind will lead to the break-up of the Kingdom?

Mr. Smith

I am glad the hon. Gentleman recognised that he is an emigré, because he has been advertised by some of his colleagues as "the voice of Scotland", and a bigger slander on Scotland it would be hard to imagine. The hon. Gentleman is in a minority of people in this House who do not see devolution as a creative evolution of our constitution, which will decentralise powers, increase accountability, and give the Scots a much more important say over their own affairs. It is, therefore, likely to be welcomed as a strengthening of the Union.

Mr. Lamond

Does my hon. Friend recall that the Scottish National Party first described the Labour Party's proposal as"an insult to Scotland" but has now announced that it will support the Bill in Parliament? Does that not indicate that its members at least realise that the new Asesmbly will give them a splendid sounding board, which they can utilise to drive the people of Scotland along an unacceptable and desperate road to complete independence?

Mr. Smith

My hon. Friend should have more faith in democratic institutions. A Scottish Asembly will create a very important platform for many more people than the Scottish National Party. It will be a platform for the Labour Party, the Conservative Party and any other party that wishes to make its view known then. There appears to be some confusion in the Scottish National Party, because it was only by a very narrow vote that its conference decided to support the concept of an Assembly at all. If its Members do not support the devolution Bill, they will be asked some searching questions in this House.

Mrs. Bain

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the Scottish National Party has stated publicly many times that it will support any move to constitutional change that it recognises as desirable? Will he reassure the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) that only the Scottish people can decide what kind of government they want, and that the best way of testing Scottish public opinion at the moment would be to hold a General Election?

Mr. Smith

That is rather a paltry excuse for supporting motions of censure on the Government, initiated by the Conservative Party, voting against the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill, and other things of which the hon. Lady's party should be ashamed. A change in the constitution of this country will be made through the House of Commons, through constitutional machinery. Indeed, our devolution proposals are the only way in which we shall change the constitution peacefully and democratically, which is what we want to do.

Mr. Alexander Fletcher

Does the Minister appreciate that the devolution proposals will have as much impact on England's constitutional position within the United Kingdom as they will in Scotland and Wales? Will he take steps to prevent an enormous legislative disaster by setting up a Select Committee on the constitution to consider all the constitutional aspects of this matter from a British standpoint, rather than from the standpoint of the panic-stricken Labour Party in Scotland?

Mr. Smith

The hon. Gentleman should be careful about suggesting yet another commission. We have had many commissions on this matter. Most importantly, there was the Royal Commission on the Constitution, which looked at these matters from the United Kingdom standpoint and which was set up as long ago as 1969. The Government believe very much that, having considered proposals and announced them, now is the time for action. We would not be interested in any further long-term examination of the problem. Therefore, I must reject the hon. Member's suggestion. He should reflect on the paucity of the Conservative Party's proposals, which not even it thinks are convincing.