HC Deb 16 June 1976 vol 913 cc693-701
Mr. J. Enoch Powell (Down, South)

I beg to move Amendment No. 2, in page 11, line 10, after "or", insert a full-time member of". This clause deals with disqualifications, especially with the disqualifications for being a Member of this House or of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

It should not be thought that the question which this amendment raises is unimportant. I agree that the chance of a serving member of the Ulster Defence Regiment desiring at the same time to represent a Northern Ireland constituency in this House is remote, but the clause also covers the qualifications for membership of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Under the 1973 Act, I think by general consent, the Northern Ireland Assembly is unlikely ever to exist, because that ill-fated Act, whatever else is done, is unlikely to be activated. Nevertheless, what we do in this clause is likely to set the pattern and the precedent for any future devolved Assembly, to use the jargon, which may hereafter be established in Northern Ireland.

Clearly, if there were any such local elected assembly, it would become a highly practical question whether membership of it was consistent with part-time membership of the UDR. As the clause stands, it disqualifies for membership not only those who are full-time members of the UDR but those part-time members who are by far the great majority of that force. I concede at once that there is no precise analogy to the position of a part-time member of the UDR. Nevertheless, I think that there is no doubt on what side of the general dividing line, for purposes of qualification or disqualification at the time, its members should be considered as standing.

11.15 p.m.

Of course, members of the TAVR are not disqualified for membership of the Assembly, but it may be said that the Territorial Army is, in normal circumstances, not embodied, and the military duties of its members consist almost exclusively of training and preparation for the eventuality of embodiment in an emergency or in time of war.

On the other hand, I would call to the Committee's attention the fact that whereas members of a police force are, as such, disqualified if they are full-time members, police reservists, special constables, and so on, are in no way disqualified. Here we have a closer analogy. It is thought that those in full-time service in a police force, by the nature of their situation and their duties in the community, should not duplicate the position by membership of this House or the elected Assembly in Northern Ireland. But the reservists in the police force and the special constables are performing exactly the same duties part-time, in relation to full-time members of the police force, as part-time members of the UDR are in relation to full-time members of that body. Indeed, the special constable or RUC reservist, who is not caught by the disqualification, may well be doing as much duty, as a constable, as a member of the UDR is doing actively in the duties the regiment performs. That is a very close analogy, which shows that the line between disqualification and the absence of disqualification, should, in the case of a police force or a military force, fall between full-time on the one hand, and part-time on the other.

Then I come to the nature of the UDR itself. I can accept that the Under-Secretary may not have a very extensive acquaintance—though I am sure he has some—with the nature of the work of this unique force which has existed for only seven or eight years, but certainly his colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office would tell him that in respect of what I might call their civilian status, without any danger of being misunderstood, there is a complete identity between the position of the part-time member of the UDR and, for example, the TAVR volunteer in either Northern Ireland or Great Britain. The men who, day by day, live ordinary civilian lives, carry on with their jobs or their professional careers, and then at the cost of sleep and their families, and giving up a great deal, and in some cases virtually all recreation, serve for hours, almost invariably at night, in the UDR are really indistinguishable in their quality as ordinary citizens from the Territorial Army member or the police reservist.

Surely, when we are considering disqualification, the question is whether a man by membership of a force has ceased to be an ordinary citizen like his fellow citizens, and therefore has ceased to be properly eligible for this House or another elected assembly, or alternatively, has dedicated himself to the performance of duties which, by their very nature, set him apart from the civilian population and render it undesirable that he should be invested with the double quality of a representative in this House and an executant of the power of the State as a policeman or as a soldier.

The case that I am putting to the Committee and the Government is that whether one looks to the analogies or to the essence of the case, one should look at the actual people, at what their lives are and at what they are doing. Consider whether they have changed their character from that of ordinary civilians to that of professional soldiers or police. There should be no doubt on which side of the line they fall.

I believe, therefore, that it should be clearly stated on the face of the statute, as it will be amended by the clause, that full-time membership of the UDR should be a disqualification for membership of either this House or a future elected Assembly in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Wellbeloved

May I first join the right hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to the men who serve on a voluntary basis in the UDR? I hope that I shall be able to convince him of the very sound operational and political reasons why the Government cannot accept his amendment. The present circumstances are that the Government believe that the policy has been clarified by Clause 20(a) in a most satisfactory way. I agree that the UDR is not in the usual sense one of the Regular Forces, the members of which are already disqualified from standing for membership of this House or the Northern Ireland Assembly. But, equally, it is important to have regard to the realities of the present situation in Northern Ireland and the special position there of what, after all, is an operational regiment of the British Army.

The first reality is operational. The members of the UDR operate in formed military bodies of platoon, company and battalion strength. If one looks carefully at the pattern of operations and activity of the regiment, it is, I think, difficult to maintain sensibly the distinction that the amendment seeks to draw between full-time and part-time members.

Part-time members of the UDR are liable to be called out on a number of occasions. During the 1974 General Elections over 50 per cent. of the regiment was called out. Last year, for the Convention Election and the EEC referendum, the figure was 35 per cent. Specific battalions have frequently been called out for extended periods of full-time service, in response to sudden increases in the level of violence, particularly sectarian violence. The UDR maintains a Province reserve company, which is provided by UDR battalions on a rotational basis for service anywhere in the Province.

The UDR—in the form of full-time and part-time members alike—participates in those operations, in aid of the civil power. The UDR's involvement in this way in Northern Ireland cannot be construed as being the same as that of the TAVR, which may be called out only when it appears that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen. The TAVR cannot be, and is not being, used to support the civil power; paragraph 0382 of TAVR Regulations 1967 states: Officers and men of the TAVR are not liable to be called out in aid of the civil power as a military body in the preservation of peace. Moreover, we have to have regard to the nature of the duties carried out by the UDR and the context in which they are undertaken. The duties, as hon. Members will be aware, include patrolling, vehicle check points, and guard duties. These duties are carried out in the same way as they are by Regular troops. And they are undertaken in circumstances of violence and sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. In those circumstances of a highly charged political environment, the Government are very firmly of the view—it is a view that has been endorsed by successive Governments—that the UDR can operate effectively and as it should only if it can be clearly recognised as a non-sectarian force. In Northern Ireland at present active involvement in politics is inconsistent with that role.

Mr. Powell

Perhaps it will make for clarity if I intervene at this stage. The hon. Gentleman said that the UDR was called out in ordinary circumstances, and is currently called out, for the same duties as the Army. Surely he is overlooking the fact that the police reserve is continually called out for the same purposes as the police in exactly the same political and military conditions.

Secondly, if I may presume on the hon. Gentleman having kindly given way, he said that the previous Administration had taken the same view. Will he explain why the amendment is necessary at this stage, and how the disqualification has been operated hitherto if there has been no statutory basis for it?

Mr. Wellbeloved

I have not overlooked the police point—I shall be coming to that. Hon. Members will observe that the operational and political considerations apply equally to part-time and full-time members. On that ground also the equation of the UDR with the TAVR cannot be sustained. In taking the two factors together, the Government are clear that for the purposes of disqualification it is right to regard members of the UDR, both full-time and part-time, as more akin to the Regular Forces than the reserves.

I turn to the right hon. Gentleman's point about the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Policy in this respect is a matter for the Chief Constable, but I am advised that members of the regular and reserve police forces are debarred under their own regulations from taking an active part in politics. This is interpreted to include membership of the House of Commons or any Northern Ireland Assembly. My advice is that the Royal Ulster Reserve is under exactly similar debarment requirements as the proposal in the legislation now before the Committee.

Mr. Powell

Will the Minister deal with my other point before he sits down?

Mr. Wellbeloved

In fairness to the right hon. Gentleman, I think I should give him the fullest possible reply. If he will allow me to write to him on that matter, I shall ensure that it is adequately covered.

Mr. Powell

I am not sure that we have yet exhausted the considerations that are raised by the amendment.

If it is necessary to make a disqualification from being a Member of this House—and many would regard membership as a fundamental right of a citizen unless duly suspended by statute—we should be providing for all we disqualify in the same way.

I cannot think it can be satisfactory that we should by statute be stating that all members of the UDR, whether part-time or full-time, are ipso facto disqualified and at the same time leaving on the statute book a provision referring to full-time service in the police, although a particular police force is, on top of that, making its own internal arrangements with those who join it.

We are entitled to require the matter of disqualification, which is an extremely serious one, to be dealt with on all fours for all types of force by statute. If the Government are to insist that the part-time as well as the full-time UDR member should be disqualified, they should in all justice and good legislation apply the same principle to the Royal Ulster Constabulary in the same way.

11.30 p.m.

I put another question to the Minister which he did not answer. If this has been the law hitherto, why are we now in 1976 legislating for the disqualification? Is it a disqualification which has hitherto been tacit? Is it something which has been done by agreement. Is it only now that this disqualification is being introduced, although there has been no case in point where a member of the UDR, full-time or part-time, has been elected to either of the assemblies in question? I hope that the Minister will be able to clear those two points.

Mr. Wellbeloved

I shall write to the right hon. Gentleman to make it even clearer. In this highly charged political environment, it has been the policy of successive Governments to hold firmly to the view that membership of the UDR and of the House or of a future Northern Ireland Assembly is undesirable. That policy is being given the force of law in this legislation.

Mr. Powell

We have certainly got clarification as to what we are actually doing. For the first time, we are introducing the statutory disqualification of members of the UDR, full-time and part-time. But that strengthens the case that, if we are to do that, we should use the same procedure in regard to the RUC.

The Minister will be aware that in the principal Act the police are specifically indicated and their full-time service is distinguished for this purpose from part-time or reserve service. I believe that when we next come to deal with this matter we ought to put it on a proper basis for both forces.

Having said that, I am obliged to accept that there is a close analogy between the duties of the police in all relevant respects and the duties of the UDR. Having regard to the standing convention governing the police reserve and the exclusion of the regular RUC by the principal Act, I do not seek at this stage to press the amendment upon the Government.

Mr. James Dempsey (Coatbridge and Airdrie)

Before the right hon. Gentleman seeks leave to withdraw the amendment, may I ask whether police regulations in Northern Ireland bar a temporary constable, as we would call him here, standing for election either to this Parliament or to some type of Assembly there? If so, and if the Chief Constable were to remove that regulation, would temporary officers be able to serve because we had made no provision in this Bill on the same lines as is made for temporary members of the UDR prohibiting them serving in an elected Assembly?

Mr. Powell

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I am very much of his mind. If we are to impose a disqualification to be elected, for example, to this House, that disqualification should by statute be imposed upon those in full-time and reserve service. It is unsatisfactory that we should by statute impose that disqualification in both cases on the UDR, whereas in the case of the RUC we impose it by statute for full-time service and by internal regulation for part-time service. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will unite with me in expressing the view that when we next deal with disqualification we shall put everyone in both forces on the same footing in this respect. At any rate, that matter will have been clarified by this short debate. Therefore, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Wellbeloved

I beg to move Amendment No. 3, in page 11, line 14, leave out 'section 1(3) of the former Act and section 1' 'subsection (3) of the former section and subsection'.

The Deputy Chairman

With this we may take Government Amendments Nos. 4 and 5.

Mr. Wellbeloved

Like all the Government amendments, these amendments are to clear up drafting errors.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 4, in page 11, line 16, after "means", insert "the Royal Navy".

No. 5, in page 11, line 19, leave out from "1955" to end of line 21 and insert 'Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service and the Women's Royal Naval Service"'.—[Mr. Wellbeloved.]

Clause 20, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 21 and 22 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedules 1 and 2 agreed to.

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