Security

HC Deb 29 July 1976 vol 916 cc859-64

11. Mr. Biggs-Davison

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the state of law and order.

12. Mr. Goodhart

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement about the security situation.

13. Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation in the Province.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Violence has continued throughout July and there have been a number of recent terrorist incidents, some of them particularly brutal, in which innocent civilians from all parts of the community have been killed or seriously injured. Fewer civilians have been killed than in previous months, but bombing attacks have continued at a higher level and substantial damage has been caused to property in Londonderry, Belfast and rural areas, notably in Castledawson and Kilrea.

There has been an increase in shooting and bombing attacks against the security forces. Only last night three policemen were injured in a booby trap explosion in Lurgan; one of them is very seriously injured. I regret also that a member of the RUC Reserve was shot at an Army checkpoint near Bessbrook. The RUC is investigating both these incidents. Two members of the security forces have been killed by terrorists so far this month, and 33 injured.

There have in the past fortnight been various disturbances among special category and remand prisoners, obviously designed to put pressure on the prison authorities. The Government's announced decisions on the future treatment of newly-convicted prisoners will not be changed.

As I have told the House on many previous occasions, the way to fight terrorism and to maintain the rule of law is through the processes of the law. The security forces continue to meet the challenge of terrorism from whatever quarter it comes and wherever it occurs. So far this year 659 have been charged with terrorist crime, including 55 with murder, and 57 with attempted murder.

I have signed an order excluding Mr. Rory O'Brady from the United Kingdom under the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1976. He is the President of the Provisional Sinn Fein, but the exclusion is concerned with the individual and not with the organisation.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we welcome what he said about the arrest of Mr. O'Brady, and that some of us think that perhaps it is a little belated? May I ask him something about the prisons where the disturbances took place, though it is not necessarily directly connected with the disturbances? Is he aware that he will have our full support in seeing through the decision to end special category status?

Mr. Rees

I must make it clear that the decision whether Mr. O'Brady should be arrested was a matter not for me but for the police. I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman said about prisons, because what matters in Northern Ireland is that people should realise that the men in the Maze Prison are there because they have been sentenced, not any act of mine. Those convicted after 1st March will serve their sentences in cells.

Mr. Goodhart

Does the Secretary of State recognise that there is growing anxiety about his plans to accelerate the granting of parôle later this year to some of the hardest men who are now in prison?

Mr. Rees

It is not "later this year"; it has already happened. I announced the plans to the House earlier this year. In this part of the United Kingdom there is a parôle scheme. People have determinate sentences, and they come out of prison. That is a fact of life. I do not deny the problem. What proportion return to violence is another matter.

Mr. Hardy

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his comments will be welcomed on the Government side of the House and more widely? Is he not entitled to be rather resentful about the recent remarks by an Opposition Member that there have been tea parties with men of violence? Would it not be better for the moderate profile usually exhibited on the Government side of the House to be maintained outside it?

Mr. Rees

I did not notice the comment about tea parties. I have said before that the exchanges with Sinn Fein have not been anything like as frequent as many people appear to think. I am sure that there was a great advantage in them a year or more ago. I am not prepared to go into details, but I can say that there have been no talks since the early part of this year, and no talks are in prospect. Anyone who talks about talks is not talking about talks in which anyone associated with me is involved. Whether other people outside the Government machine are involved, on their own initiative, in talking to the Provisional Sinn Fein is not a matter for me. Only a few weeks ago I was approached by some- one who claimed to carry a personal message from David O'Connell, threatening increased violence in Ireland if there were an early political agreement between the parties. I did not seek that meeting; I did not know the man from Adam. I hope that because I received a message in that way no one will say that I am arranging talks.

Mr. McNair-Wilson

Does the Secretary of State agree that there is a large mass of arms held illegally within the Province? What new initiatives does he intend to take to have a more vigorous campaign to discover and recover those arms.

Mr. Rees

This is a matter for the security forces. We talk about it a great deal. There are many illegal weapons in the Province, and finds are made from time to time. These arms are held by people across the divide. In order to do something about them we must have evidence showing where to look and where to dig. The security forces are looking the whole time, and they achieve much success.

Mr. Fitt

My right hon. Friend will be aware of the massive wave of sympathy in Ireland that occurred because of the recent explosions—sympathy that did not come solely from the South or the North. It involved all the people of Ireland, who have shown their absolute repugnance for the men of violence.

On the matter of the exclusion of Mr. O'Brady, it will be for the interest of the House and people in Ireland who are bitterly opposed to violence if my right hon. Friend can tell us definitely and distinctly that the reason for that exclusion order was that there were suspicions or evidence that Mr. O'Brady was directly involved in supporting men engaged in a campaign of violence.

Mr. Rees

I realise that there is the wave of sympathy to which my hon. Friend referred. We are very grateful for the attendance of hon. Members, including an hon. Member from the Opposition Front Bench, at the funeral of a good friend of ours who was killed last week.

With regard to Mr. O'Brady, the situation is quite clear. The Act says that somebody shall be involved in violence if he is or has been concerned (whether in the United Kingdom or elsewhere) in the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism". That is what I have to take into account.

Mr. Powell

In the matter of the prison disturbances and special category, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no less than Her Majesty's Official Opposition, my hon. Friends and myself are in total support of his policy on the ending of the special category; that, if anything, its termination should be accelerated; that there must be no question of his giving way; and that the more this is understood by those concerned the less avoidable damage and destruction there will be?

Mr. Rees

We are extremely grateful for those words, which we strongly support. We shall not give way on the matter of special category, political status, of men being in compounds and doing as they like, as it were, of being in "the best terrorist training school in the world", and all the other words that can be used. These men have been properly sentenced for the most serious crimes and will serve their sentences in the proper fashion.

Mr. Neave

In referring to the counterproductive talks with the Provisional Sinn Fein just now, the right hon. Gentleman said that there was a great advantage in those talks. What was that advantage, and when was it apparent to the people of Northern Ireland, in view of the very heavy casualties of the past few days and months? Why did the right hon. Gentleman not tell the House before that these talks have not occurred since the beginning of this year? He has never said that before.

Mr. Rees

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will read what I have been saying. I think that it was apparent to those living in Northern Ireland. I chose my words very carefully. I have said what I had to say on this matter. Eighteen months ago, when an organisation announced a ceasefire—not at our instigation—I should have been wrong if I had not found a means of discovering what it was about and giving in this House my words, as given by officials to that organisation. To find a means of ending the violence would have been something that everybody should have been pleased about.

Mr. Neave

Will not the right hon. Gentleman admit that he was totally deluded about the ceasefire, that it has been a dreadful mistake, and that he has increased the dangers to the population of Northern Ireland by talking to people to whom he has given political credibility?

Mr. Rees

I think that when the day comes for the facts to be known that will be seen not to be the case. I stand by what I did. I think that I was right to do it.