HC Deb 27 July 1976 vol 916 cc579-86

Amendments made: No. 94, in page 91, leave out the items relating to section 7(2) and (3).

"Section (Occasional permissions) (3) Contravention of condition of occasional permission. — — £100.
Section (Occasional permissions) (6) Failure to ensure observance of provisions relating to conduct of licensed premises — — £100"

—[Mr. Millan.]

Mr. Millan

I beg to move Amendment No. 98, in page 96, column 2, in the item relating to section 78(2), leave out 'and disorderly behaviour' and insert: 'drunkenness, or riotous or disorderly conduct'. This is a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment made: No. 99, in page 96, column 2, in the item relating to section 80, after 'prostitutes' insert 'etc'.—[Mr.Millan.]

Mr. Millan

I beg to move Amendment No. 100, in page 97, column 2, in the item relating to section 86, after 'constable' insert 'or obstructing his entry'.

Mr. Speaker

With this we may take Government Amendments Nos. 101, 102, 103, 104, 105.

Mr. Millan

These are all drafting amendments.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 101, in page 97, column 2, in the item relating to section 87(1)(a), leave out 'Permitting on-consumption of' and insert 'Selling or supplying'.

No. 102, in page 98, column 2, in the item relating to section 90(b), after 'Bartering' insert 'or selling'.

No. 103, in page 98, column 2, in the item relating to section 91(2), after 'Carrying' insert 'or delivering'.

No. 104, in page 100, column 2, in the item relating to section 100(a) after 'Trafficking' insert 'in'.

No. 105, in page 101, column 2, in the item relating to section 101(1), after 'in' insert 'or supplying'.—[Mr. Milan.]

No. 95, in column 2 in the item relating to section 31(2), leave out 'or wine'

No. 96, in page 91, after the item relating to section 35, inesert the following items—

9.40 a.m.

Mr. Millan

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I did not intend to say anything about the Bill at this stage and I hope that the House will excuse me if I do not talk about its merits. I would simply say that we now have a Bill with, from my point of view, one major defect in respect of Sunday drinking, but in other respects it makes important and useful changes in the licensing law of Scotland.

I would congratulate all hon. Members on both sides of the House who have stayed throughout this long sitting to enable us to complete Report and Third Reading. I am extremely grateful to all hon. Members, whatever their views. I am grateful to them for staying and for the friendly way in which the debates have been carried on in spite of our differences of opinion.

9.41 a.m.

Mr. Buchanan-Smith

I would also like to say a few brief words. I feel that the Report stage and Third Reading of the Bill is a testimony to the endurance of all hon. Members who took part. I would also like to thank all hon. Members on both sides of the House for the way in which the Bill has been handled. I would extend my personal thanks to the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland who has carried the burden of the Bill through Committee and Report. I also particularly welcome the way in which the Government have responded to amendments put forward by the Opposition. I feel that we now have a better Bill than it was when we first considered it and I would commend it to the House, in spite of that part of it which I know the Secretary of State feels is a defect.

It would be a mistake if we thought of the Bill as providing only for the class pubs, open seven days a week. I opening of pubs on a Sunday. That would be a disservice to Dr. Clayson and his colleagues. Just as Dr. Clayson and his colleagues tried to produce a balanced report—and we must view that report in its totality—so our job is to view the Bill in its totality. There are many good aspects to the Bill, quite apart from the fact that individuals may have certain reservations about particular parts of it.

I particularly welcome it because I feel that it is a liberalising measure. I hope that when it comes into effect in Scotland it will fulfil the aspirations of Dr. Clayson and all of us who have supported it. It is important to remember that we are dealing with human behaviour and that it is impossible to legislate in respect of human behaviour. I certainly hope that it leads to better attitudes in Scotland towards alcohol.

Dr. Clayson said in his report that he hoped that the effects of the liberalising measures which he recommended, if carried through, would be monitored, None of us with the best will in the world, whichever side we take on the argument, can be certain what the results will be. I hope that the Government will carry through the monitoring that Dr. Clayton recommended because that would help us to evaluate properly and precisely what the effect of the Bill will be. I welcome the measure and thank all those who have been involved with it.

9.44 a.m.

Mr. David Steel

I would briefly say that my view on how we have legislated has not differed from the start of the evening but despite that I thank the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State for the way in which they have handled the Bill during the all night sitting.

They have both shown a degree of brevity and flexibility which I do not normally associate with Scottish Office Ministers. As I am one who is always ready to criticise Scottish Ministers, I think that we should thank them for a job extremely well done. I would pay tribute to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor), although I fell asleep during one of his contributions in the middle of the night.

I think the whole House would agree that it has been worth while sitting up all night in order to get the Government to realise that they were on the wrong track as far as clubs were concerned. It was during the debate on the Clayson Committee Report that I first said that I saw no support for the propositions in the report and that I felt that its recommendations were on the wrong track. I am glad that it has been shown that I was wrong and that the support has been extensive.

As one who opposed Sunday opening, I accept the decision as a democrat, and I hope that it will be a great success. I hope that the licensing authorities will proceed with great caution on extending licences into Sunday and that great attention will be paid to the type of premises which receive them.

It will be a great shame if the Bill, because of the publicity, becomes known as the Sunday Opening Bill. There are other important provisions in it. The new types of certificate will, I hope, lead to a civilising influence on the drinking habits of Scotland. None of us, whatever our views on the Bill, can be satisfied with the present rate of alcoholism in Scotland or the state of drinking habits. I hope that at the end of the day we shall feel that the Bill is successful. The Ministers deserve to be congratulated.

9.46 a.m.

Mr. John P. Mackintosh

I add my voice to the welcome for the Bill as it stands. I agree that there is much more in it than just the question of Sunday opening. It is a comprehensive and forward-looking measure. It has been a long haul since Clayson reported in 1971. It has taken five years—I would say too long—to get this measure on to the statute book. Now that it is there I welcome it.

I take a different view from the Leader of the Liberal Party about Sunday opening. I voted for it. I was worried when my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, explaining the fall-back clause, said that it would be used toughly against licensees applying for Sunday licences. I hope that it will be used in exactly the opposite direction—against unsatisfactory premises open during the week—and that we shall not create second-class pubs, open for only six days a week, and first- hope that we shall raise the standards of all public houses and have one uniform standard.

That is not the Bill's sole concern. I am glad that it covers all the other aspects of opening. I too hope that Dr. Clay-son's request for more research into the Bill's effects will be met. We do not want next time around to hear rubbishy arguments about more opening hours leading to more drunkenness and alcoholism. There is a set of causal connections there which are not known. We must know more. We must watch for any defects. Let us hope that this liberalising measure is a success.

9.48 a.m.

Mr. Teddy Taylor

Unlike the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh), I think that the House has made a great mistake by passing a Bill to reform drinking hours in Scotland without making a serious attempt to change the character of drinking premises or to find the root causes of excessive drinking.

The Leader of the Liberal Party said that the powers in regard to Sunday opening must be used sparingly or with caution. I hope that he has read the schedule which gives the alleged protection. It says that unless the granting of a Sunday licence will lead to undue disturbance or public nuisance the boards must approve Sunday opening. There is no discretion.

I fear that we have made a major change without the necessary safeguards. I am very disappointed. This is a move in the wrong direction. I do not look upon the Bill as something which will be monitored and which will be changed in a few years if it does not work. All moves to permissiveness or liberalisation since I came to this House have been permanent. There is no way back. What worries me is that these changes have not been successful but have resulted in a crumbling of the moral standards and standards of conduct and much more human misery.

My greatest hope tonight is that I am totally wrong, that the Bill will be a great success and that we shall achieve civilised drinking. But all the evidence that I have seen and all experience of similar Bills has been exactly the opposite. We have made a mistake. We have also lost a great opportunity to have a real reform Bill and not just an extension of pub hours, which is basically all that the Bill is, however it is dressed up.

Those who have campaigned for licensing reform and have sat here through the night, particularly the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian, have run a brilliant campaign. They have done well. I hope that for the sake of Scotland they are right and I am wrong.

9.51 a.m.

Mr. Dalyell

As one who did not serve on the Committee, perhaps I am in a good position to acknowledge with gratitude, on behalf of others who were not on the Committee, the work that was done by Members of all parties who served on the Committee. Anybody reading through the massive amount of Committee work must be impressed by the work done not only by the Ministers concerned but by hon. Members on both sides.

Frankly, I was a bit disconcerted by what was apparently a fairly sudden decision by the Government to change their mind on the issue of police supervision of clubs. Why was that change of mind made?

The reply may be "You did not vote against it." Frankly, I was so disconcerted that, not being one who is given to instant opposition to my own Government—at any rate, without having had time to reflect on the matter—I did not call out. However, it is legitimate to ask why there was that change of mind. There may have been good reasons for it, but they have not been spelt out. I hope that when my hon. Friend the Minister replies for the last time he will turn his attention to that question.

9.53 a.m.

Mr. Monro

As Dr. Clayson is a constituent of mine, I know that this morning he will feel particularly pleased that the Bill—largely based on his recommendations—is now well on its way to the statute book. He will probably feel that all the work that his committee put in over so many years of taking evidence has been well worth while. I feel that the Bill is now in a better shape than when it went into Committee. I welcome most of the changes that were made in Committee and on Report.

I hope—I am sure that this will be so because of the Scottish Office's interest in the Health Education Unit—that the efforts to reduce alcoholism through publicity and helping the organisations involved with alcoholics and in the research done by the universities and by the Health Education Unit will bear fruition in the years ahead. If we can in any way begin to reduce alcoholism in Scotland, that will be a major step forward. I do not think that anything we have done in the Bill will do other than help towards that end.

9.54 a.m.

Mr. Canavan

Much of the publicity given to the Bill outside the House has centred round the proposal for Sunday opening. I voted in favour of Sunday opening and was particularly pleased that that provision was carried.

The more liberalised laws that will come from the Bill will, hopefully, lead to more civilised and healthier attitudes towards drinking and healthier drinking habits amongst the Scottish people, and will thereby fulfil the hopes of Dr. Clayson and his committee.

I was particularly pleased at the passing of my amendment regarding late licences for clubs. That provision will be welcomed by many working people throughout the cities, towns and villages of Scotland.

I should like to express a personal word of thanks to the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling, Falkirk and Grangemouth (Mr. Ewing). We had some initial disagreements about police entry to clubs. However, I should like to thank him for his very generous concession and for the pains to which he went to discuss the matter not only with me but with representatives of the clubs in central Scotland at that meeting a few months ago at the Bannockburn Miners' Welfare Club. There was a historic happening at Bannockburn 662 years ago. I think that that meeting with club representatives at Bannockburn will go down as another historic event there, because the passing of this Bill is indeed a historic occasion. The Government do not often accept my advice but I urge them to do it more often, particularly the Treasury.

9.55 a.m.

Mr. Harry Ewing

After spending 11 hours on Report, there is a danger that we might accede to my hon. Friend's requests to accept his advice more often. I intervene to resist that possibility.

I thank hon. Members for their gratitude to those who were responsible for seeing the Bill through. Perhaps I should exclude my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) from my next remark, but we could not have done the work without the co-operation of hon. Members, particularly in Committee. It was one of the best Committees on which I have served and at the time it was the only Committee on which the usual channels were working. It was harmonious.

I used to describe myself as the "Three Ds Minister"—divorce, devolution and drink. The divorce Bill is on the statute book, the drink Bill is on its way to another place and I should be grateful if hon. Members could give me the hat-trick.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.