§ 3.38 p.m.
§ Mr. Anthony Steen (Liverpool, Waver-tree)I beg to move,
that leave be given to bring in a Bill to train unemployed school leavers by creating new opportunities to involve them in neighbourhood work, community care and service to others.
§ Mr. Michael English (Nottingham, West)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Steen), who is introducing the Bill, assure us that in this case the Bill—unlike the three Bills which he has previously introduced in this Session—will eventually, if the House gives leave, be printed?
§ Mr. SteenI took instructions, knowing of the hon. Gentleman's objections. I gather that it is normal to print the Bills. I took the view that as my Bills were unlikely to reach the statute book it was a waste of public expenditure to cause them to be printed.
§ Mr. SpeakerMay I help the hon. Gentleman? He can help the House if he will get to his Ten-Minute Bill as quickly as he can, because there is a timetable motion before the House.
§ Mr. SteenThere is growing suspicion as to the Government's intentions about tackling unemployment among school leavers. The Government protest too much. They say they are doing all that is possible. They say it is a short-term problem. They say that it will go away. It will not.
The statistics tell the story. In August 1970, 39,000 school leavers were registered as unemployed. Under the Tory Administration, the figures stayed fairly constant, dropping in August 1973 to 23,000. They started to rise again under Labour. In 1974, 59,000 school leavers were unemployed. In 1975, 165,000 school leavers were unemployed. In July of this year, 209,000 school leavers were unemployed. The figure will go higher.
What are the Government doing? One can give them credit for only one thing. They are experts in spending other people's money, because £415 million has already been frittered away on palliatives. When will the Government acknowledge some fundamental truths?
255 First, the Government must stop playing the rôle of father figure—
§ Mr. Robert Mellish (Bermondsey)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understood that the hon. Gentleman got up to move a Ten-Minute Bill. All I have heard so far is an abuse of the privilege of introducing a Bill. The hon. Gentleman has made a direct attack on Government policy. If that is to be the procedure, Mr. Speaker, it will mean that the Ten-Minute Bill procedure will be constantly abused by hon. Members on both sides. That would be a very sad thing. I have not heard a word yet as to what the Bill is about.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I am quite sure that the hon. Gentleman will now outline the purposes of his Bill.
§ Mr. SteenI hope that the interruption will not be counted against my 10 minutes.
The Government must stop playing the rôle of father figure, overlord and provider. This not only undermines the work ethic but robs the young of their independence and sense of initiative. [Interruption.] If you bothered to listen you might learn something.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I am listening but I do not know whether I am learning. Would the hon. Gentleman be kind enough to outline the purposes of his Bill? I know that he wants to be fair to the House.
§ Mr. SteenThe National Service Bill aims to eliminate the damage currently being done by the Government to school leavers, by giving them something meaningful and relevant to do, and on their own terms.
The Bill has a three-pronged attack. The first prong is to establish a national initiative programme run by the young themselves, giving every school leaver the chance to create his own work experience either by personal social service or by undertaking practical community work to improve the quality of life and the facilities in his neighbourhood. The possibilities are infinite. Every hon. Member will know the social distress and needs in his constituency which could be tackled to improve the quality of life there.
256 The second prong is for the Government to appeal by direct advertisement through the media, laying down a challenge to the whole community. Industry, small business and individuals alike would be asked to make available opportunities for job training and learning experience for young people. It would be an appeal to every citizen to involve young people in his work.
The third prong—
§ Mr. Bob Cryer (Keighley)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for an hon. Member to introduce a Ten-Minute Rule Bill and to say what is going into the Bill, when the same hon. Member has already introduced three such Bills which have never seen the light of day? Not a single printed Bill has appeared. Is not the hon. Gentleman using the House as a means for getting across meaningless verbiage? If hon. Members are really concerned and serious, the Ten-Minute Rule procedure can result—as it has in the past—in Bills being put on the statute book. May we ask you, Mr. Speaker, to protect the House? Cannot the hon. Member be asked whether he intends to produce a Bill?
§ Mr. James Prior (Lowestoft)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not a gross abuse of the procedure of the House that Government Members should seek to interrupt my hon. Friend by bogus points of order? Should they not leave to the Chair the decision whether my hon. Friend is in order, instead of themselves raising bogus points of order?
§ Mr. EnglishFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I remarked on Friday 16th July that the hon. Member's three previous Bills could not be objected to because they have never been put forward in print, but some six weeks before that, because I could not find him, I informed his Whips that I would raise the issue. I pointed out that he had six weeks in which to present any one of those three Bills. I have had letters from constituents—as, no doubt, have other hon. Members—asking where the hon. Member's Bills are. These constituents believe that the Bills exist because leave was given by the House to introduce them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where are they?"] I am sorry to take up the time 257 of the House. May I suggest to the hon. Gentleman—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Whether previous Bills have been printed is not a matter for me. The Ten-Minute Bill procedure is quite straightforward. It is not unknown for it to be used as a means of putting forward a specific point of view which is not acceptable on all sides of the House. I have known this to be done by hon. Members on both sides of the House. But the argument must be directed to the terms of the Bill that the hon. Gentleman is seeking leave to introduce. It must not be a general debate on Government policy or anything else.
§ Mr. Norman Buchan (Renfrewshire, West)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If I understood your ruling correctly, you said that it was in order to use the Ten-Minute Bill procedure to put forward a point of view, and not necessarily, therefore, in order to produce a Bill. Did you, in fact, mean that, Mr. Speaker?
§ Mr. SpeakerIf the hon. Gentleman gained that impression from what I said, I clearly was not expressing myself as forcibly as I should. But within the context of a Ten-Minute Bill there is often controversy. That is why such Bills are often opposed. I ask the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Steen) to realise that he is taking the time of the House. The points of order are also taking a lot of time.
§ Mr. EnglishOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) by implication accused Members of discourtesy. May I point out that there have been no points of order interrupting other Members who have introduced Ten-Minute Bills, even if they were regarded as controversial?
§ Mr. Kenneth Lewis (Rutland and Stamford)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I quickly correct—
§ Mr. SpeakerMay I seek to help the hon. Gentleman? I hope that he has a genuine point of order. Correcting other Members' points of order is my responsibility, not his.
§ Mr. Kenneth LewisOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I simply say that last week I raised a point of order on a Ten-Minute Bill and was shot down 258 about three times in quick succession. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The House is getting very unruly. May we continue the Ten-Minute Bill? Mr. Steen.
§ Mr. SteenIt is important that we correct the record because hon. Members opposite have given an incorrect view. They have said that three Bills have been introduced. Only one Bill has been introduced on unemployment and that had nothing to do with the subject which I am discussing this afternoon. I wish to ask that leave be given to introduce this Bill.
§ 3.50 p.m.
§ Mr. Neil Kinnock (Bedwellty)rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerIs the hon. Member rising to oppose the Bill?
§ Mr. KinnockYes, Mr. Speaker. I shall speak with great brevity, especially since the hon. Member's remarks, though abbreviated, were still much too long for common sense. He spent the first few minutes of his introduction to the Bill on a general and, in terms of the rules of order of this House, over which you preside, Mr. Speaker, highly objectionable use of the Ten-Minutes Rule Bill procedure for the purpose of a partisan attack. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. Mr. Burden, on a point of order.
§ Mr. F. A. Burden (Gillingham)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When Ten-Minute Rule Bills are introduced, hon. Members on either side of the House who object to them should divide the House and show their opposition in the Lobby rather than raise bogus points of order.
§ Mr. SpeakerThat is the old-fashioned way and it has worked very well.
§ Mr. KinnockYou and I are both old-fashioned boys, Mr. Speaker. Though I could not be thought of as perhaps one of the least partisan Members of the House, it appears to me that we shall be going off at something of a tangent if, generally speaking, we use the Ten-Minute Rule Bill procedure for that purpose.
259 If I may speak specifically on the question of an initiative programme, at very best it sounds like an echo of a 1930 semi-Fascist corporate State programme, and at very worst it is a genuine Fascist corporate State programme. The idea of using public resources to issue challenges—and what a virile sounding word "challenge" is?—to the community to help youngsters in this way is a most outrageous misinterpretation of the situation that confronts unemployed young people in Britain today. They do not want this kind of help. They do not want the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Steen) or anybody else to manufacture synthetic employment opportunities for them, nor do they want to enjoy national
| Division No. 281.] | AYES | 3.54 p.m. |
| Adley, Robert | Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye) | Neubert, Michael |
| Banks, Robert | Hastings, Stephen | Normanton, Tom |
| Beith, A. J. | Hawkins, Paul | Osborn, John |
| Benyon, W. | Hayhoe, Barney | Page, John (Harrow West) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Heseltine, Michael | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Higgins, Terence L. | Paisley, Rev Ian |
| Blaker, Peter | Holland, Philip | Pardoe, John |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hordern, Peter | Parkinson, Cecil |
| Bottomley, Peter | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Peyton, Rt Hon John |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) | Hunt, John (Bromley) | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Hurd, Douglas | Prior, Rt Hon James |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Buck, Antony | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) | Rathbone, Tim |
| Budgen, Nick | James, David | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Burden, F. A. | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd) | Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Jessel, Toby | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Carlisle, Mark | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Kershaw, Anthony | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Clark, William (Croydon S) | Kimball, Marcus | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Cockcroft, John | Kitson, Sir Timothy | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Knight, Mrs Jill | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Cope, John | Langford-Holt, Sir John | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Cordle, John H. | Latham, Michael (Melton) | Scolt-Hopkins, James |
| Cormack, Patrick | Lawrence, Ivan | Sims, Roger |
| Corrie, John | Lawson, Nigel | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Costain, A. P. | Le Marchant, Spencer | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E) | Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Speed, Keith |
| Crouch, David | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Lloyd, Ian | Sproat, Iain |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Luce, Richard | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Eyre, Reginald | McCrindle, Robert | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | MacGregor, John | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | Madel, David | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Mates, Michael | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Mather, Carol | Wakeham, John |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald | Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester) |
| Godber, Rt Hon Joseph | Mawby, Ray | Walters, Dennis |
| Goodhart, Philip | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Warren, Kenneth |
| Goodhew, Victor | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Mills, Peter | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Monro, Hector | Younger, Hon George |
| Gray, Hamish | More, Jasper (Ludlow) | |
| Griffiths, Eldon | Morgan, Geraint | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Mr. Anthony Steen and |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Mudd, David | Mr. Leon Brittan. |
| Hannam, John | Neave, Airey |
| NOES | ||
| Allaun, Frank | Armstrong, Ernest | Atkinson, Norman |
| Anderson, Donald | Ashley, Jack | Bagier, Gordon A. T. |
| Archer, Peter | Ashton, Joe | Bates, Alf |
§ charity. They want real work, and if the hon. Gentleman were interested in that he would not be engaging himself in stupid abuses of the House such as this, or in any other gimmick, using his constituents for purposes of personal propaganda. He would be on this side of the House, against hon. Gentlemen opposite, striving to reflate the economy so that working-class youngsters in our society could have real work to do.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 139, Noes 183.
| Bean, R. E. | Hayman, Mrs Helene | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Heffer, Eric S. | Reid, George |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Henderson, Douglas | Richardson, Miss Jo |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Hooley, Frank | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Bishop, E. S. | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Huckfield, Les | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Roderick, Caerwyn |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Rodgers, George (Chorley) |
| Buchan, Norman | Hunter, Adam | Rooker, J. W. |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Canavan, Dennis | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Sandelson, Neville |
| Carmichael, Neil | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Carter, Ray | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Selby, Harry |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) | John, Brynmor | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) |
| Coleman, Donald | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne) |
| Colquhoun, Ms Maureen | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Kaufman, Gerald | Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) |
| Corbett, Robin | Kelley, Richard | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Sillars, James |
| Crawford, Douglas | Kinnock, Neil | Silverman, Julius |
| Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Lambie, David | Skinner, Dennis |
| Cryer, Bob | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Small, William |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Leadbitter, Ted | Snape, Peter |
| Dalyell, Tam | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Davidson, Arthur | Loyden, Eddie | Stallard, A. W. |
| Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Luard, Evan | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) | Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) | Stoddart, David |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Mabon, Dr J. Dickson | Stott, Roger |
| Dempsey, James | McCartney, Hugh | Strang, Gavin |
| Dormand, J. D. | McDonald, Miss Oonagh | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Dunn, James A. | Mackenzie, Gregor | Swain, Thomas |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | Maclennan, Robert | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Eadie, Alex | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Edge, Geoff | Madden, Max | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Edwards Robert (Wolv SE) | Magee, Bryan | Thompson, George |
| Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | Mahon, Simon | Tinn, James |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Tomlinson, John |
| English, Michael | Maynard, Miss Joan | Torney, Tom |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Hellish, Rt Hon Robert | Urwin, T. W. |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Mendelson, John | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Mikardo, Ian | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Millan, Bruce | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Ward, Michael |
| Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W) | Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) | Watkins, David |
| Flannery, Martin | Mitchell, R. C. (Solon, Itchen) | Watkinson, John |
| Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Weitzman, David |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Moyle, Roland | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Newens, Stanley | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | Noble, Mike | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Goldlng, John | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Gould, Bryan | Ovenden, John | Woodall, Alec |
| Gourlay, Harry | Padley, Walter | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Palmer, Arthur | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Park, George | |
| Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) | Parry, Robert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Hardy, Peter | Prescott, John | Mr. Russell Kerr and |
| Hart, Rt Hon Judith | Price, C. (Lewisham W) | Mr. Stan Thorne. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Mr. EnglishOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask your assistance on behalf of the House? You are in charge of the Clerks of the House, and I ask you whether, after consultation with the Leader of the House and the Shadow Leader of the House, you will make it clear that the House has made it plain that it does not wish to give leave to introduce Bills that in fact are never 262 introduced, even on subjects in respect of which it might be sympathetic. May I ask you to have the appropriate consultations to see that this practice does not occur again?
§ Mr. SpeakerThis is another matter that could be referred to the Procedure Committee. It is not a matter for me. The sooner the Procedure Committee starts work, the better.