HC Deb 14 July 1976 vol 915 cc642-4
13. Mr. Luce

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has received from voluntary organisations regarding the law relating to the provision of minibuses.

Mr. Marks

A number of voluntary organisations have written to hon. Members, to Ministers and to the Department suggesting changes in the law to put their use of minibuses outside the scope of public service vehicle licensing.

Mr. Luce

Does the Minister realise that there is widespread support from schools and voluntary organisations for my Transport (Amendment) Bill, which is designed to facilitate the provision of transport for such bodies? How can the Government justify objecting to, and therefore sabotaging, a Bill that is designed to help those in need?

Mr. Marks

I have sympathy with Clause 3 of the hon. Gentleman's Bill, which deals with minibuses run by voluntary organisations and schools, but to seek to proceed with the Bill before we have had the necessary consultations would be wrong. At the moment the National Council of Social Service and the national youth organisations have a working party that is investigating the matter. We expect it to report in September. We shall be meeting the Association of County Councils and the Association of Metropolitan Authorities to discuss the rôle of the county councils in the matter, particularly on the subject of registration and safety. We must also consult the Charity Commission.

Sir J. Langford-Holt

Is it not clear that school buses are operating illegally?

Mr. Marks

I have no knowledge of any schools doing anything that is illegal.

Mr. Flannery

Is my hon. Friend aware that today I met representatives of the National Union of Teachers, who are deeply disturbed about the matter? Is he further aware that they pointed out that schools all over the country are in real trouble over the issue of minibuses? Will he expedite action?

Mr. Marks

There has been no recent change in the law. It has been the same for the past 16 or 17 years, when the law of the 1930s dealing with safety was replaced. I declare an interest, as a member of the same trade union as that which my hon. Friend mentioned. We have consulted carefully with organisations such as that and the National Council of Social Service, as well as representatives of the metropolitan and non-metropolitan areas. They will have a lot of work to do, because they have recently been given much work by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

Mr. Norman Fowler

Is the Minister aware that the issue is causing concern on both sides of the House? Does he accept that the present position of minibuses is also causing anxiety to voluntary organisations and schools throughout the country? Such organisations have heard many words from the Minister; when will they get some action?

Mr. Marks

I have specified three different things that we are doing. We are consulting county councils of both kinds, the Charity Commission and the various bodies that have expressed support for Clause 3 of the hon. Member's Bill. We must be extremely careful before giving wide powers not just to voluntary organisations but to those people who might look for loopholes in the law.