HC Deb 06 July 1976 vol 914 cc1156-8
13. Mr. Cope

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what guidance he will give to local education authorities about the optimum size of comprehensive schools.

Miss Margaret Jackson

There is no single ideal size for a comprehensive school. My right hon. Friend considers on their merits proposals made by local education authorities or governors in respect of particular schools and he does not consider that any useful purpose would be served by giving general guidance on the question of size.

Mr. Cope

Is the hon. Lady aware that one of the problems with comprehensive schools is that they are either too large or they have an inadequate sixth form? In those circumstances, is it not a mistake to force comprehensives upon local authorities that do not want them?

Miss Jackson

The hon. Gentleman is drawing a rather strange conclusion from his initial remarks. There are problems of varying size and efficiency, and so on, in any kind of school organisation. We do not feel that there is an optimum size at which comprehensives can successfully be established and that anything above or below that size is inappropriate for a comprehensive school. We believe very much that the success of a school and the way it is run are very dependent on local conditions and circumstances. That is why we seek to study such conditions and circumstances very carefully before approval is given to such schemes.

Mr. Flannery

Is there not a great deal that is good and right about our educational system? The Conservative Party seems to beam the media and every criticism that it can against a system that is not only expanding but is expanding for the good. Is it not most unhelpful to use the size of schools as a basis for attacking comprehensive education—especially coming from a party that casually relegated 85 per cent. of our children, with no parental choice whatsoever, to the secondary modern schools, and never raised that matter at all?

Miss Jackson

There is a great deal in what my hon. Friend said. I must tell him that one of the most enjoyable aspects of being a Minister in the Department of Education and Science is the opportunity that it offers to visit schools and to see how different the position is—the devotion and expertise shown in the schools and the intelligence and personality of the pupils—from the picture of doom and gloom that one gets so frequently from the Opposition Benches.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

Does the hon. Lady agree that comprehensive schools necessarily have to be large in order to provide the range of subjects that is demanded of schools? Will she, therefore, consider again issuing a circular to local education authorities about the organisation of comprehensive schools in order to break down their mammoth size? Will she give further consideration to the quality of teachers, because excellent, highly motivated teachers are required to manage and teach children in comprehensive schools?

Miss Jackson

I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's assumption that all comprehensive schools must be large in order to offer a sufficient range of subjects. If as much devotion had been shown, over the years, to the question whether all the grammar schools that we have provided offered a sufficient range and variety of subjects, and whether their standards of education were as high as they could be, as is now applied to comprehensive schools, perhaps we should not be having the problems that hon. Members sought to highlight earlier, of a possible decline in standards.