HC Deb 28 January 1976 vol 904 cc425-32
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson)

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement.

As the House will be aware, the Icelandic Prime Minister, Mr. Hallgrimsson, visited this country from 24th to 27th January. We held a series of meetings in which my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and other Ministers also took part. In addition, talks were held between Mr. Hallgrimsson and my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary. Legal advisers and conservation experts from both sides also met separately on 25th January to discuss problems which were referred to them.

Various formulae for a possible solution of the dispute were considered. I explained to Mr. Hallgrimsson our recognition of the importance of adequate measures to conserve fish stocks around Icelandic coasts in our interests as well as theirs.

The situation during the talks was complicated by problems which arose on the fishing banks as a result of action taken by Icelandic coastguard vessels. I am most grateful to the British fishing industry for the co-operation which it has shown in reducing the risk of serious clashes.

Mr. Hallgrimsson has now returned to Reykjavik to discuss the situation arising from our talks with his Government col- leagues. I expect to be in touch with him again shortly. It will not be easy to find a solution to this most delicate problem, and I am sure that the House will not wish to press me at this stage for details of the positions adopted by the two sides. It remains of great importance that nothing further should happen on the fishing banks to heighten tension, and in the last two hours I have found it necessary to re-emphasise this to Mr. Hallgrimsson.

It will be clear from what I have said that Her Majesty's Government have approached this matter in a constructive spirit and have shown and continue to show the greatest restraint. This point has been appreciated by our NATO partners, and I should like to express my gratitude to the NATO Secretary-General for the action which he took to make possible my meeting with the Icelandic Prime Minister.

I shall, of course, keep the House fully informed of any future developments. In the meantime, it is important that the prospects for further discussions should not be endangered by speculation or by ill-judged words or actions, particularly on the fishing grounds.

Mr. Maudling

I thank the Prime Minister for his statement. In this delicate stage of the negotiations I entirely agree that it would be wise to reserve any comment. I ask the Prime Minister to accept that the Opposition fervently wish to see a just solution of the problem. Will he undertake to make a further statement to the House as soon as possible?

The Prime Minister

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his forbearance. It is a very difficult problem for all of us and for the Icelandic Government. Some of the ideas we discussed have been taken back for discussion by the Icelandic Government and, however difficult it is for us, we must wait until they have reached a determination on these questions. Meanwhile, I note that the right hon. Gentleman fully supports our actions. I emphasise how vitally important it is that nothing should occur in the fishing grounds or in any other way to exacerbate the situation.

Mr. James Johnson

I accept that Mr. Hallgrimsson has internal difficulties with a hostile Cabinet, perhaps a hostile Parliament and perhaps a hostile population on the pavements. I congratulate the Government on their handling of this complex and confused situation. Is my right hon. Friend aware that for every 1,250 tons of cod in our quota not caught, between 25 and 30 men become unemployed, five times that number in ancillary occupations become unemployed and one vessel has to be put back into the yard for demolition?

Will my right hon. Friend say what is the interim position of the fleet at sea? The fishermen have caught no fish for 48 hours and, as my right hon. Friend said, they have behaved in an exemplary fashion. May we have an assurance that if they are in difficulties and if—God forbid—the talks do not come to a successful conclusion, the Navy will still be there to defend them?

The Prime Minister

I thank my hon. Friend for what he said and his understanding as a Member of Parliament for a constituency comprising one of our fishing ports. It is true, as he said, that there is great feeling in the Icelandic Cabinet and among the Icelandic people. Cod is a central feature of Iceland's economy. We recognise that, and the essence of negotiation is to help the other chap as well as to stand up for our own national interests. I confirm what my hon. Friend said about the conduct of the trawler fishermen, partcularly those who are in an area of great peril. We had to intervene twice in the middle of a key part of the talks because of action taken. As to the future, we have asked the Icelandic Government to join us in cooling the situation in the inevitable period while we are awaiting their response. We have made clear that, if there are any problems, we reserve all rights in the matter of protecting our fishing vessels during the period while the Icelandic Government are reaching their decision. We have also made clear that, while we passionately hope for an agreement—as I am sure the Icelandic Government do—in default of an agreement the Government reserve their rights fully to protect our fishermen who are about their legal business in fishing in waters which we do not accept as having been closed to us.

Mr. Grimond

Is the Prime Minister aware that we fully appreciate the delicacy of the situation and welcome his statement about the importance of conserving stocks? Will he say a little more about the instructions which are currently being given to the British fleet and whether he is satisfied that they are sufficiently clear?

The Prime Minister

To reply to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, we have expressed to the Icelandic Government our full agreement with them on the need for conservation. That is In the interests not only of the Icelandic fishermen but of ourselves. There is great anxiety on the part of conservation experts that stocks may fall to an impossibly low level. We have been very reasonable in this matter. The scientists on both sides did not reach agreement on what should be the total catch on conservation grounds, but we have shown great flexibility because there is advantage to us as well as to Iceland in ensuring—or even over-ensuring—conservation in the first year or two to make sure that breeding continues and that more stocks will be available.

As to the immediate situation, I again pay tribute to the trawler industry. We had to give the fishermen rather differing instructions and they were very understanding about it. We have made clear that any continued interference—I am extremely worried about reports we have had in the last two or three hours—must be met by our telling the Icelandic Government that we are not prepared to accept a situation contrary to what we have agreed with them in the matter of cooling it. If necessary, we shall have to take action to protect our ships against harassment and interference, as indeed we had to tell the Icelandic Government two days ago. Certain reports in the evening papers, although well meaning, are not accurate. We have not increased the number of frigates in service in those waters. One has come off station and another has gone on. The question is not about the total number available. We have made clear that in the interim period or if—heaven forfend—there is no agreement, we shall not hesitate to protect our fishermen in their legal pursuits.

Mr. Prescott

I accept that it is extremely difficult in this delicate situation to pass comments. I welcome the removal of Royal Naval vessels whose presence inflamed the situation in the early stages. I am glad that realism seems to be coming into the negotiations. Unemployment on Humberside is just a small part of the problem. The real issue is to get a settlement at the Law of the Sea Conference and to call a meeting with Norway and Iceland to consider how to divide the area for exclusive use within the 200 miles.

The Prime Minister

The law of the sea is a matter for the United Nations Conference. We shall not determine our final domestic decision until that conference has reached a situation in which it is possible for us to do so. We have not accepted the unilateral declaration by the Icelandic Government. Indeed, it has been put in baulk by the decisions on the international law front. We are talking about an area of the high seas which has not been accepted internationally as territorial waters.

We must not take a one-sided view of this situation. If our trawlers, fishing legally, are to be harassed by tug boats, thug-boats or whatever they may be, we are entitled to protect them. I have made it clear that we shall do so in the interim period if that is necessary. But if the situation is to be cooled, that will not be done by inflammatory speeches. I have made it clear that we shall protect our trawlers in the interim period. I hope that it will not be necessary to take such action. In the longer term, if there is no agreement we shall continue to give protection.

This country has always insisted on the freedom of the high seas. I do not believe that one or two actions which were taken even while the talks were taking place were consonant with freedom of action, including fishing, on the high seas.

Mr. Clegg

I congratulate the Prime Minister on the reply he has just given to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) and on the attitude he has taken today. It will be much appreciated in Fleetwood. The protection by the Royal Navy was very welcome to the port. Equally, at the moment, no one should take any steps which could aggravate the proceedings. May I add a plea that, whilst the dispute is going on, the Prime Minister should ask his right hon. Friends to look into the renegotiation of the EEC policy, because that is a separate but very important issue?

The Prime Minister

I understand the keen interest of the hon. Member for North Fylde (Mr. Clegg) in Fleetwood, Knott End and other areas that he and I know well. I thank him very much for what he has said.

Clearly, the EEC fisheries policy is a matter for consideration in the Community, which inevitably takes time. But we were not backward in explaining to our Icelandic friends in these discussions the importance of Protocol 6 of the Treaty of Accession in relation to Iceland, and they are well aware of its importance and that we are prepared to help them in these matters but only as part of an overriding general agreement, which I hope we shall achieve.

Mr. Watt

Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he has not used the herring stocks in Scottish waters as a bartering lever in the present negotiations?

The Prime Minister

All relevant considerations were taken into account both in preparing our attitude and in what we said.

Mr. McNamara

Is my right hon. Friend aware that everyone will welcome his statement on the need to keep cool and not inflame the situation and that no one will disagree on the importance of conservation in this issue? But can he tell us how soon is "shortly"? When does my right hon. Friend hope for a reply from the Icelandic Government to Her Majesty's Government's proposal? Can my right hon. Friend also answer the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. Johnson) in relation to employment in areas such as Fleetwood and Humberside, where already far too many fishermen are walking the stones and far too many people in ancillary industries are also unemployed?

The Prime Minister

That last point was very much in our minds in our approach, and we made it clear in our discussions with the Icelandic Government.

On the question of when we may expect a reply from the Icelandic Government, my colleagues and I are very anxious. We would have hoped to negotiate and agree something while the Icelandic Prime Minister and his colleagues were here, but we recognise their problems of reporting back to the Icelandic Cabinet. I hope that we are very near to getting a decision from them. I would rather get the right answer with two or three days' delay, however, than an immediate answer unacceptable to Her Majesty's Government, the House or to hon. Members representing fishing ports. But the matter cannot wait indefinitely, as I am sure the Icelandic Government know. Equally, every day a decision is postponed endangers the situation on the high seas.

It is for that reason that I keep coming back to our insistence that everything should be done on both sides to cool the situation. That means that we have to ask our trawler skippers and crews to show some restraint in the matter. It is no less important that the Icelandic coastguard authorities recognise the importance of getting an agreement and of not harassing our trawlers and escalating the situation even before we know what the Icelandic Government's answer is.

Mr. Wall

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware—[Interruption]—that we hope for a successful compromise which will both be fair to our fishermen and restore our traditional friendship with the people of Iceland? The right hon. Gentleman said that the status quo would remain during these negotiations. Could he be specific on one point, namely, that—[Interruption]—frigates will remain available although outside the 200-mile limit?

The Prime Minister

I am sorry, but could the hon. Gentleman repeat the last part of his question?

Mr. Speaker

Order. If hon. Members want to conduct conversations, will they please do so outside the Chamber?

Mr. Wall

Is the Prime Minister aware that we all hope for a successful compromise which will both be fair to our fishermen and restore our traditional friendship with the Icelandic people? He said that meanwhile the status quo re- mains. Can he give a specific assurance on one point, namely, that frigates, while remaining outside the 200-mile limit, will be available if needed?

The Prime Minister

Yes, Sir. I have already referred to the question of the number of the frigates concerned. They are outside the 200-mile limit. I specifically referred, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs did at Question Time, to the situation that if, during the period while we are waiting for a decision from the Icelandic Government, there is harrassment, that is something we cannot accept and then all bets would be off with regard to the positioning of the frigates.

We also made it clear that if there is no agreement we would intend to continue fishing with due regard for the conservation aspect which I have mentioned but that we would not in such a situation suffer our trawlers to be harrassed and therefore we would in that situation have to move the frigates within that area.