§ Order for Third Reading read.
§ 10.11 p.m.
§ The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Michael Foot)I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I hope that in moving the Third Reading I shall be brief. I am sure that everyone will wish that to be the course to be pursued. I hope all hon. Members will agree that, despite suggestions some weeks ago that this procedure would curtail proper discussion, we have provided sufficient time for reconsideration of the Bill. I think that the only hon. Member who has suffered under our procedure—and I apologise to him at once—is the hon. Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Bottomley), whose amendments were not able to be called under the procedure we have followed.
§ Mr. Peter Bottomley (Woolwich, West)I do not wish to go back to the occasion when some of us predicted that this would happen, especially as I was not in the House for the previous rounds. However, I ask the right hon. Gentleman to indicate whether my amendments would have been acceptable. I know that there is not time to go into the reasons for or against them.
§ Mr. FootI was about to say that, persuasive as I am sure the hon. Gentleman's speeches would have been, we would not have been able to accept his amendments. His first amendment concerned the political levy. If he looks at the existing rules of trade unions, he will see that most of the difficulties that he might think might arise are already covered. The other matters that he raised are already covered, we believe, by the provisions that enable agreements to be made between employers and unions. We think that that is the best way of dealing with the problems that the hon. Member had in mind. I cannot give him any further satisfaction than that. We hoped that he would be able to move his amendments in the proper way. There was no desire by the Government to seek to exclude him from doing so.
380 I think most hon. Members will agree that, contrary to the suggestions that the Government were being miserly or trying to curtail the time that the House would have to discuss these matters, we have had very full time for reconsideration of the Bill. I had in mind to state very briefly the sort of procedure that might occur, following Third Reading, in another place, but even those remarks I shall abbreviate very much further than I had previously thought.
The Bill will now go to another place once we give it a Third Reading. I trust that it will be given a Third Reading with a substantial majority such as we have been enjoying throughout the day.
When the Bill goes to another place, I hope that those concerned will recognise the view which has been expressed in such overwhelming terms by this House. I hope they will take that into account and allow the Bill to go on to the statute book speedily and without the Parliament Act needing to be invoked. That would be the simplest and most sensible course. Arrangements could be made whereby the main additional suggestion, as it is called under this procedure, which has been approved in these discussions could be added to the Bill as it was left on the previous occasion. The Press charter can be added to the propositions by the House of Lords, and it will be discussed by the methods which the Government will describe in the House of Lords.
I hope that the other place will take account of the fact that we have had substantial majorities on all the other matters that have come before us on this Bill but that this particular proposition passed this House without a dissenting voice. Since there have been these substantial majorities on a measure which is controversial, I trust that the other place will now recognise the will of the elected House of Commons and accept that fact.
I say in conclusion that many violent adjectives or nouns have been used in this debate. Indeed, I have been referred to as Dr. Faustus. It was remarked of Dr. Faustus,
Let Faustus live in hell a thousand years".I dare say that some people would choose that fate for me. But surely even 381 Dr. Faustus would have been able to knock something off that thousand years if he had been able to plead that he had spent a thousand hours on the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill. Therefore, I ask for a remission for all those who have endured the same fate.We believe that this measure will contribute to industrial relations and we send the Bill to the other place in that spirit. We trust that the other place will never dare to send it back again.
§ 10.18 p.m.
§ Mr. James Prior (Lowestoft)I wondered what the Secretary of State for Employment was reading so avidly during the debate. I thought that he was bored with the proceedings. I now recognise that he must have been wading through "Dr. Faustus" to find the quotation he gave.
We have regarded this Bill and its predecessor which was thrown out by the House of Lords as being particularly bad. It is a little disingenuous of the Secretary of State to say that the Press charter passed without dissent in this House. The truth is that we had long debates on the matter and went deeply into the subject of the charter. We were unsuccessful, and I suppose that the charter can be regarded as at least a step in the right direction. We believe that it will have to be greatly strengthened in a year or two and we hope that we shall then have the support of Labour Members.
The Bill has been concerned the whole way through with the issue of the freedom of the individual. Its provisions involve the exclusion or expulsion of an individual from a trade union without a properly constituted tribunal or court before which a case can be put. It also touches conscience grounds in respect of unfair dismissal when a man does not wish to belong to a trade union. We were unable even to write in the words
§ "deeply-held conviction." Such words have been barred from the Bill.
§ I see no members of the Scottish National Party present, and on no single occasion have they supported us during the passage of the Bill. So much for their ideas of freedom north of the border.
§ The Bill has received larger majorities than it deserved. That is certainly true when judged against the attendance during our debates of Labour Members, who have been conspicuous by their absence.
§ We are grateful to the Government for having given the House two days' discussion of the measure. We think that the procedure has worked reasonably well. Of course, it may have to work again on subsequent occasions. If the Government go on producing legislation like this, I would not be at all surprised if we have more of this procedure.
§ We believe that a sensible middle course could have been adopted between our amendments and the Government's desire to have no proper guarantees in the Bill for the rights of the individual. If we had reached an agreed solution, it would have done more to help industrial relations than any other single thing we shall do in the lifetime of this Parliament. A great opportunity has been missed.
§ We shall consult the TUC and seek to reach agreement—and I believe that we can—on many of the aspects concerned with the rights of the individual which the TUC leaders and their members understand, even if the Government do not. It is in that spirit that we shall approach future industrial relations. For the moment, we shall leave their Lordships to do what they like with the Bill.
§ Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes, 285, Noes 249.
387| Division No. 41.] | AYES | [10.22 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank | Bean, R. E. | Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) |
| Anderson, Donald | Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) |
| Archer, Peter | Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Buchan, Norman |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Bidwell, Sydney | Buchanan, Richard |
| Ashley, Jack | Bishop, E. S. | Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) |
| Ashton, Joe | Blenkinsop, Arthur | Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Boardman, H. | Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) |
| Atkinson, Norman | Booth, Albert | Campbell, Ian |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Canavan, Dennis |
| Bain, Mrs Margaret | Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Cant, R. B. |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Bradley, Tom | Carmichael, Neil |
| Bates, Alf | Bray, Dr Jeremy | Carter-Jones, Lewis |
| Cartwright, John | Huckfield, Les | Park, George |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Parker, John |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Parry, Robert |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Coleman, Donald | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Perry, Ernest |
| Colquhoun, Mrs Maureen | Hunter, Adam | Prescott, John |
| Concannon, J. D. | Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) | Price, C. (Lewisham W) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) | Radice, Giles |
| Corbett, Robin | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Janner, Greville | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) | Jeger, Mrs Lena | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Crawford, Douglas | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Roderick, Caerwyn |
| Cronin, John | John, Brynmor | Rodgers, George (Chorley) |
| Crosland, Rt Hon Anthony | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Rodgers, William (Stockton) |
| Cryer, Bob | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Rose, Paul B. |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiten) | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Rowlands, Ted |
| Dalyell, Tam | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Sandelson, Neville |
| Davidson, Arthur | Judd, Frank | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Kaufman, Gerald | Selby, Harry |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) | Kelley, Richard | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Kerr, Russell | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne) |
| Deakins, Eric | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Dean Joseph (Leeds West) | Kinnock, Neil | Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C) |
| Delargy, Hugh | Lambie, David | Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) |
| Dell, Rt Hon Edmund | Lamborn, Harry | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Dempsey, James | Lamond, James | Sillars, James |
| Doig, Peter | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Silverman, Julius |
| Dormand, J. D. | Leadbitter, Ted | Skinner, Dennis |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Lee, John | Small, William |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Dunn, James A. | Lever, Rt Hon Harold | Snape, Peter |
| Dunnett, Jack | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Spearing, Nigel |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | Litterick, Tom | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Eadie, Alex | Loyden, Eddie | Stallard, A. W. |
| Edge, Geoff | Luard, Evan | Stewart, Donald (Western Isles) |
| Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | Lyon, Alexander (York) | Stott, Roger |
| Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) | Strang, Gavin |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | McCartney, Hugh | Strauss, Rt Hon G. R. |
| English, Michael | MacCormick, Iain | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Ennals, David | McElhone, Frank | Swain, Thomas |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | MacFarquhar, Roderick | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | Mackenzie, Gregor | Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) |
| Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Mackintosh, John P. | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray) | Maclennan, Robert | Thompson, George |
| Fernyhough, Rt Hn E. | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | McNamara, Kevin | Tierney, Sydney |
| Flannery, Martin | Madden, Max | Tinn, James |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Magee, Bryan | Tomlinson, John |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Mahon, Simon | Tomney, Frank |
| Ford, Ben | Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Torney, Tom |
| Forrester, John | Marks, Kenneth | Tuck, Raphael |
| Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) | Marquand, David | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Freeson, Reginald | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd) |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Walker, Terry (Kingswood) | ||
| Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | Meacher, Michael | Ward, Michael |
| George, Bruce | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Watkins, David |
| Gilbert, Dr John | Mikardo, Ian | Watt, Hamish |
| Ginsburg, David | Millan, Bruce | Weetch, Ken |
| Golding, John | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Gould, Bryan | Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) | Welsh, Andrew |
| Gourlay, Harry | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Graham, Ted | Molloy, William | White, James (Pollok) |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Moonman, Eric | Whitlock, William |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Grocott, Bruce | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Williams, Alan (Swansea W) |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Moyle, Roland | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Harper, Joseph | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Newens, Stanley | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) |
| Hart, Rt Hon Judith | Noble, Mike | Wilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton) |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Oakes, Gordon | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Hatton, Frank | Ogden, Eric | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Hayman, Mrs Helene | O'Halloran, Michael | Woodall, Alec |
| Healey, Rt Hon Denis | O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian | Woof, Robert |
| Henderson, Douglas | Orbach, Maurice | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Heffer, Eric S. | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Hooley, Frank | Ovenden, John | |
| Horam, John | Owen, Dr David | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H) | Padley, Walter | Mr. Tom Pendry and |
| Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Palmer, Arthur | Mr. David Stoddart. |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | More, Jasper (Ludlow) |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Morgan, Geraint |
| Alison, Michael | Gray, Hamish | Morris, Michael (Northampton S) |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Griffiths, Eldon | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) |
| Arnold, Tom | Grist, Ian | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H, (Spelthorne) | Grylls, Michael | Mudd, David |
| Awdry, Daniel | Hall, Sir John | Neave, Airey |
| Baker, Kenneth | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Nelson, Anthony |
| Banks, Robert | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Neubert, Michael |
| Beith, A. J. | Hampson, Dr Keith | Newton, Tony |
| Bell, Ronald | Hannam, John | Normanton, Tom |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss | Nott, John |
| Benyon, W. | Hastings, Stephen | Onslow, Cranley |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Havers, Sir Michael | Oppenheim, Mrs Sally |
| Biffen, John | Hawkins, Paul | Osborn, John |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Hayhoe, Barney | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Blaker, Peter | Hicks, Robert | Paisley, Rev Ian |
| Body, Richard | Higgins, Terence L. | Parkinson, Cecil |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Holland, Philip | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Bottomley, Peter | Hooson, Emlyn | Penhaligon, David |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) | Hordern, Peter | Percival, Ian |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Howell, David (Guildford) | Peyton, Rt Hon John |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Brittan, Leon | Hurd, Douglas | Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Brotherton, Michael | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Prior, Rt Hon James |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | James, David | Rathbone, Tim |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd) | Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Budgen, Nick | Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) | Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Burden, F. A. | Jones, Arthur (Daventry) | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Jopling, Michael | Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) |
| Carlisle, Mark | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Churchill, W. S. | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Kershaw, Anthony | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Clark, William (Croydon S) | Kilfedder, James | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Kimball, Marcus | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Clegg, Walter | King, Evelyn (South Dorset) | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Cope, John | Kitson, Sir Timothy | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Cormack, Patrick | Knight, Mrs Jill | Royle, Sir Anthony |
| Corrie, John | Knox, David | Sainsbury, Tim |
| Costain, A. P. | Lament, Norman | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Crouch, David | Lane, David | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Crowder. F. P. | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Shepherd, Colin |
| Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford) | Latham, Michael (Melton) | Shersby, Michael |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | Lawrence, Ivan | Sims, Roger |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Lawson, Nigel | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Drayson, Burnaby | Le Marchant, Spencer | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Dunlop, John | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) |
| Durant, Tony | Lloyd, Ian | Speed, Keith |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Loveridge, John | Spence, John |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Luce, Richard | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Elliott, Sir William | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Sproat, Iain |
| Emery, Peter | McCrindle, Robert | Stainton, Keith |
| Eyre, Reginald | McCusker, H. | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Macfarlane, Neil | Stanley, John |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | MacGregor, John | Steal, David (Roxburgh) |
| Fell, Anthony | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Stokes, John |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Madel, David | Tebbit, Norman |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | Marten, Neil | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Fox, Marcus | Maude, Angus | Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S) |
| Freud, Clement | Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Fry, Peter | Mawby, Ray | Townsend, Cyril D. |
| Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Trotter Neville |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Mayhew, Patrick | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Mills, Peter | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Miscampbell, Norman | Viggers, Peter |
| Godber, Rt Hon Joseph | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Wakeham, John |
| Goodhart, Philip | Moate, Roger | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Goodhew, Victor | Molyneaux, James | Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester) |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Monro, Hector | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek |
| Gorst, John | Montgomery, Fergus | Wall, Patrick |
| Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Moore, John (Croydon C) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Whitelaw, Rt Hon William | Wood, Rt Hon Richard | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Wiggin, Jerry | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) | Mr. Carol Mather and |
| Winterton, Nicholas | Younger, Hon George | Mr. Fred Silvester. |
| Question accordingly agreed to. |
| Bill read the Third time and passed. |
| Ordered, |
| That the amendments suggested by this House to the Bill be communicated to the Lords. |
| CONSIDERATION ON REPORT OF CERTAIN BILLS BY A STANDING COMMITTEE |
| Ordered, |
| That Standing Order No. 73 (Consideration on report of certain Bills by a Standing Committee) be amended, as follows:— |
| Line 24, leave out 'and Monmouthshire'. |
| Line 27, leave out 'and Monmouthshire'.— [Mr. Coleman.] |