HC Deb 26 January 1976 vol 904 cc13-7
7. Mr. Grylls

asked the Secretary of State for Industry what consultations have been held this year with representatives of the employees of the British Aircraft Corporation's factories on the proposed nationalisation of the aircraft industry.

Mr. Carmichael

Ministers and officials at the Department of Industry keep in close touch with representatives of employees in the aerospace industry, in eluding those working at BAC factories, on our proposals for public ownership.

Mr. Grylls

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that there are reports that even workers in the industry do not want this nationalisation? As their wish for nationalisation is one of the prime reasons put forward for nationalising the industry, and in the light of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's talks today with the TUC on the problem of unemployment, would it not be more sensible to abandon this irrelevant expenditure of money and use it instead on supporting worthwhile projects that might create more jobs and reduce unemployment?

Mr. Carmichael

This matter was explored in Standing Committee. The workers in the industry have made it clear that they wish the aircraft industry to be nationalised.

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson

Can the hon. Gentleman say when during the discussions he could have argued about employment levels in the industry once nationalisation had taken place? What promises have been given to the workers in these companies?

Mr. Carmichael

On Second Reading my right hon. Friend made it clear that there would almost certainly be rationalisation in the aircraft industry and an increase in productivity because of the combination of the two main airframe firms. This, too, is being discussed in Standing Committee.

Mr. Cryer

Will my hon. Friend accept that Government supporters do not wish to see a nationalised aircraft industry consisting solely of the construction of Concorde and the MRCA? Can he say what plans he has for the replacement of the production of Concorde by something more socially useful at the end of the current production run?

Mr. Carmichael

These matters are being taken up by the organising committee, and they will be matters for the boards of corporations once they are set up.

Mr. Heseltine

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the fact that he cannot answer any of the questions in Standing Committee is no reason why he should not answer them on the Floor of the House? Will he confirm, following what he said about rationalisation, that it is the Government's expectation that the number of jobs in the industry will decline?

Mr. Carmichael

The hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Minister of State debated this matter in Standing Committee and the point was fully answered there.

8. Mr. Thorne

asked the Secretary of State for Industry whether he has already established a number of joint planning committees involving the British Aerospace Organising Committee and the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions; and, if not, when he expects so to do.

Mr. Carmichael

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has asked the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions for advice on how best to ensure that the views of workers in the industry are given due weight.

Mr. Thorne

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. May I draw his attention to the fact that there is considerable disquiet in the industry that it is only at the eleventh hour, apparently, that discussions that have any real value are taking place with the Confederation? May we have an assurance that speed will be the essence of my hon. Friend's activities in this regard for the future?

Mr. Carmichael

My hon. Friend is not quite accurate. Discussions have been going on for some time with the organising committee on the development of industrial democracy within the new corporations, and my right hon. Friend wrote to the CSEU asking for its advice.

Mr. Gordon Wilson

In view of the orders crisis facing the shipbuilding industry and the failure of the Government to produce a shipbuilding policy prior to the implementation of their nationalisation proposals, does the hon. Gentleman care to confirm or deny reports in the Press this week that the Government intend to introduce a shipbuilding policy to allow shipbuilding firms to go for orders on a world-wide basis and to try to attract orders from British shipping interests?

Mr. Carmichael

The main help that we intend to give the shipbuilding industry is in the reorganisation that will be brought about when the Bill goes through. On the other hand, there have been discussions with individual shipbuilding areas. For instance, last week I attended one on the Clyde when specific discussions took place with both management and unions in the industry with a view to finding ways of helping certain areas over this particularly difficult patch in world shipping.

Mrs. Hayman

But is my hon. Friend aware that there is concern not only about the implementation of industrial democracy within the nationalised aircraft industry but about present projects or planned projects on which we are not getting decisions? Can he give some indication of whether the organising committee will itself be able to consider and give an opinion on, for example, the tripartite report on the HS146 project? Can he assure us that if the organising committee cannot do that, the Department of Industry will look at that report and give us some comments?

Mr. Carmichael

The organising committee will be able to look at these projects. It is important to remember that, had it not been for this Government assisting it and allowing it to be "put on ice" until a firm decision could be made, the whole HS146 project would have fallen.

Mr. Ridley

If in his consultations with the workers the Minister finds that the workers of any particular concern, whether in shipbuilding or in aircraft building, express a majority preference not to be nationalised, will he give an undertaking that he will respect their wishes?

Mr. Carmichael

We have no evidence of any general—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] My right hon. Friend has made it clear from the beginning that the CSEU is the organisation which we consider to be representative of the mass of the workers in the industry. There is no question but that the CSEU and the mass of the workers in the industry who have approached us are firmly of the opinion that this industry should be nationalised.