HC Deb 19 February 1976 vol 905 cc1471-3
12. Mr. Wm. Ross

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with the efficiency and capability of the security forces in Londonderry.

Mr. Merlyn Rees

Yes, Sir.

Mr. Ross

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that out of the many thousands of people who have taken part in acts of disruption over the last two years, only 12 were ever charged with an offence? Is he also aware that while, apparently, there are sufficient numbers of soldiers and policemen actually on the ground, there was widespread destruction and rioting in Londonderry over the past weekend? If there is a sufficiency of men who are able and competent, and are actually on the ground, does not this point to incompetence on the part of their commanders? Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to remedy that matter?

Mr. Rees

For the hon. Gentleman to accuse officers commanding the Army of being incompetent is a case of something-or-other calling the pot black. They know what they are doing. They are fully trained. I have been talking to them this week. They are getting very fed up with criticism from the so-called Loyalist side of the community, just because certain members of that community do not want them to carry out their duties in the way that they want to. Certain members of that community want them—to use a description that I have previously used—to go into certain areas like John Wayne and the American Marines. That is not the way in which the British Army wants to do its job. I have called for the figures. I have a list of the events of recent days. Four hundred youths rioted in the city centre. What does the hon. Gentleman want? Does he want the Army to open fire on them?

Mr. Carson

Arrest them.

Mr. Rees

The hon. Gentleman illustrates the difficulty that the Army has with problem children and youngsters who are out of control. The Army realises that it is not its rôle to deal with youngsters in that way, except to keep them apart from the Protestant areas in which they might do damage. This illustrates the real problem that the Army has in dealing with youngsters of this age.

Mr. Tebbit

Accepting, as the Secretary of State does, our satisfaction with the efficiency and capability of the security forces in Londonderry, what is it that prevents them from being able to restore law and order? Is it the numbers—that they do not have enough people—or is it, as the Secretary of State seemed to imply, that this situation is totally beyond the wit of man to command?

Mr. Rees

It is certainly not a matter of numbers. It is a fact—perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to come and see—that in the Bogside and the Creggan there are areas which do not accept the responsibility of citizenship of the United Kingdom, for historical reasons. I put it to the hon. Gentleman bluntly: if we were to put in the whole of the BAOR and to call up the whole of the Territorial Army, first, it would be the wrong thing to do and, second, this sort of situation can be dealt with only when the leaders of the Catholic community are prepared to come in and support the security forces, and not just in the way that they do now, by reporting anything that they see that is wrong, but when the people in this area believe that they belong to Northern Ireland—and they do not believe this at the moment.

Mr. Wm. Ross

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.