§ 12. Mr. Neubertasked the Secretary of State for Defence what discussions he has had with the United Kingdom's NATO partners regarding any further cuts in defence expenditure.
§ 14. Mr. Ioan Evansasked the Secretary of State for Defence what further consideration has been given to reducing defence expenditure; and if he will make a statement.
§ 16. Mr. Goodhartasked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will make a further statement about the implementation of defence cuts.
§ Mr. MasonI have nothing to add to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdare (Mr. Evans) on 13th January on the question of defence cuts.
Our allies are, of course, aware that the United Kingdom is conducting its annual review of public expenditure. When this has been completed we shall advise the alliance of the outcome for defence.
§ Mr. NeubertNow that the South Atlantic is threatened by the collapse of Angola into the arms of Communism, would it not be the height of folly to reduce the strength of the North Atlantic alliance? Will the Minister assure us that he will not cut expenditure except after the fullest consultation and in concert with our NATO partners?
§ Mr. MasonThat is typical of the stupid exaggeration that takes place during discussion of defence matters. The hon. Gentleman is wrong to talk about the collapse in the South Atlantic, especially since the French, American and British Navies still deploy worldwide, go into these regions, and operate with CENTO, and bearing in mind that our task forces went as far as Australia and deployed all the way back to South America. Hon. Gentleman should not make such exaggerated comments.
§ Mr. EvansWill my right hon. Friend resist demands from the Opposition that he should massively increase defence expenditure while the Government cut back on other forms of expenditure? Is he aware that in the 222 battle against inflation a cut in defence expenditure would make an immediate contribution and that if men are employed in peaceful production for exports that would be a far better defence of our country than employing them making arms?
§ Mr. MasonWhat my hon. Friend has in mind would take a long time if we are to do it rationally and sensibly. That cannot be achieved within the time scale that some of my hon. Friends would like. The employment implications are quite considerable, but that apart, as Secretary of State for Defence I am not prepared to jeopardise the security of the Western alliance by quick, short-term defence cuts.
§ Mr. GoodhartWill the Secretary of State now admit that in recent months there has been a stream of protest from our allies about the Governments' past, present and future defence cuts?
§ Mr MasonIf there had been they would not have been warranted. The hon. Gentleman knows that. He should ask our major European allies to what extent they are matching our professional contribution of 55,000 troops, through the British Army of the Rhine, a tactical air force, and a modern navy in the Eastern Atlantic, which is playing a bigger rôle than any one of their navies.
§ Mr. MaddenWhich of our NATO allies is increasing its expenditure on defence, in terms of GNP.
§ Mr. MasonI think that Greece, Turkey and Portugal will be taking an interest in that question and will no doubt be raising theirs.
§ Mr. WarrenIn the course of cutting defence expenditure will the right hon. Gentleman examine very carefully the situation that has arisen in Europe, where we are getting railroaded into the purchase of an American aircraft for the airborne warning system when there is a suitable British aircraft which could be deployed in Europe.
§ Mr. MasonI do not mind the hon. Gentleman using his little constituency lobby in defence affairs, but I hope that he will put the facts on record and recognise that although we are prepared to pay a contribution to the development of AWACS, we still have a good fall-back position, which we have not neglected 223 and which is still being funded, based on Nimrod.
§ Mr. OnslowCan I persuade the Secretary of State to stop being arrogant and to start being rational? How does he continue to claim to be a better judge of the effectiveness of this country's contribution to NATO than all our allies? Will he not show a greater belief in the alliance by, instead of advising our allies, genuinely consulting them before making the cuts?
§ Mr. MasonThe hon. Gentleman should get his facts right before he comes so aggressively to the Dispatch Box. We have never let our allies down on the consultative procedures. On the Defence Review we gave them eight weeks' notice and we went through all the consultative procedures with them. They were content with that. The United Kingdom's defence expenditure, as a percentage of GNP, is 5.8 per cent.; for NATO as a whole it is 5.3 per cent.; and for NATO Europe it is 4.3 per cent. We are therefore playing our part.
§ Later—
§ Mr. WarrenOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In reply to my supplementary question I understood the Secretary of State for Defence to refer to my "little constituency lobby. This is a rather unacceptable parliamentary phrase and was a slur, I hope unintended, on the way we try to prosecute our business in this House, to look after all workers, whatever constituency interests we may be trying to represent.
§ Mr. SpeakerI saw the Secretary of State giving sympathetic nods, which I interpret as meaning that he was in entire agreement with the hon. Gentleman.