§ Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
§
Motion made and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to education, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—
- (a) any increase in the sums so payable in respect of—
- (i) grants under section 102 or loans under section 105 of the Education Act 1944, or
- (ii) rate support grant under the Local Government Act 1974,
which is attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session relating to proposals for any such action as is mentioned in section 13 (1) or (2) of the Education Act 1944;
- (b) any increase in the sums so payable in respect of grants under section 8(2) of the Local Government Act 1974 which is attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session applying section 1 of the Education Act 1962 to courses for the higher diploma of the Technician Education Council or the Business Education Council;
- (c) any increase in the sums so payable in respect of rate support grant under the Local Government Act 1974 which is attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session relating to the provision of milk by local education authorities.—[Mr. Gerry Fowler.]
§ 10.16 p.m.
§ Mr. Geoffrey Dodsworth (Hertfordshire, South-West)I shall not detain the House long. I wish to draw its attention to the form of the Money Resolution and to ask a number of questions about it. This is a curious Money Resolution and perhaps my experience in the House makes me unable to understand its total cost and content.
It says
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to education, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament ofand then lists in paragraphs(a), (b) and (c) certain definitions. However, at no stage does it indicate any sum of money.By coincidence, I deduce that paragraph (a) refers to Clause 3 of the Education Bill which has just had its Second Reading. Why do we have to authorise an item of expenditure without any limit 1338 or ceiling to it in connection with a Bill which has just received its Second Reading? If we relate the paragraphs to the clauses, we discover that Clause 3 refers to the approval and implementation of the proposals. What is the cost of the implementation of the proposals likely to be? I do not want an answer which relates only to the cash cost today.
In the unemployment debate which took place a short time ago—
§ Mr. Peter Rost (Derbyshire, South-East)On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am prepared to accept that your hearing, Mr. Speaker, may be substantially better than mine, but I am finding it extremely difficult to hear my hon. Friend's important remarks.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The House should listen with respect to any hon. Member.
§ Mr. DodsworthI am obliged to you, Mr. Speaker, and to my hon. Friend.
I should like to point out that 172 grammar schools are likely to be affected by the proposals contained in the Resolution. There must be a cost analysis. In the unemployment debate there was a continual call for the cost benefit analysis on a total basis. When we discussed unemployment we wanted to know about redundancy, social security and loss of production. When we discuss education we want to know not only the Government's expenditure but the local authority expenditure. This is a reasonable question to ask at a time when we are being asked to pass a Money Resolution.
Paragraph (b) refers to Clause 7. Paragraph (c) refers to Clause 8 which deals with milk. In the Explanatory Note on the
Financial effects of the Bili[...]it states that it will cost £6 million to £9 million. Those figures are not contained in the motion which we are being asked to approve.This is a curious procedure whereby we are asked to approve expenditure in respect of legislation which has not yet been approved and for which the amount involved is uncertain. The only matter which is certain is that in 1976–77 £25 1339 million is to be spent on the reorganisation of schools for comprehensive purposes.
What provisions are there in the Government's capital expenditure estimates to provide for this type of cost? Have the sums been done? Have the calculations been made? Our experience is that the Government machine succeeds in bungling the figures time after time. We have the Treasury's book-keeping record. The Home Office is unable to get the immigration figures right. I want to be sure that the Minister of State, Department of Education and Science has got his sums right. We want to know the cost. That is the purpose of the Resolution.
§ 10.19 p.m.
§ The Minister of State, Department of Education and Science (Mr. Gerry Fowler)I should like, Mr. Speaker, to add my congratulations to those of other hon. Members on your election to the Chair.
§ The provisions in the Bill relating to comprehensive education will not give rise to additional public expenditure. My right hon. Friend explained that he intends to use his power to require proposals to be treated as Section 13 proposals only where in his view resources are already available or provision can be made from future building programmes. I cannot estimate the size of future building programmes.
§ Regarding school milk, the Bill does no more than make possible the introduction, by regulations, of more flexible arrangements for the provision of milk by local education authorities. I am not yet in a position to say what form the new Regulations will take. My right hon. Friend, after consulting the local authority associations in due course, will doubtless report to the House. That is why there is a range of figures in the Financial Memorandum regarding what might be the additional cost.
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes, 293, Noes 252.
1343| Division No. 52.] | AYES | 10.21 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Coleman, Donald | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) |
| Allaun, Frank | Colquhoun, Mrs Maureen | Foot, Rt Hon Michael |
| Anderson, Donald | Conlan, Bernard | Ford, Ben |
| Archer, Peter | Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Forrester, John |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Corbett, Robin | Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) |
| Ashley, Jack | Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill) | Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) |
| Ashton, Joe | Crawshaw, Richard | Freeson, Reginald |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Cronin, John | Freud, Clement |
| Atkinson, Norman | Crosland, Rt Hon Anthony | Garrett, John (Norwich S) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Cryer, Bob | Garrett, W. E. (Walisend) |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | George, Bruce |
| Bates, Alf | Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Gilbert, Dr John |
| Bean, R. E. | Davidson, Arthur | Ginsburg, David |
| Beith. A. J. | Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Golding, John |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Davies, Denzil (Llanel[...]i) | Gould, Bryan |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Davis, Clinton (Hack[...]ev C) | Gourlay, Harry |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Deakins, Eric | Graham, Ted |
| Bishop, E. S. | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Grant, George (Morpeth) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Delargy, Hugh | Grant, John (Islington C) |
| Boardman, H. | Dell, Rt Hon Edmund | Grocott, Bruce |
| Booth, Albert | Dempsey, James | Hardy, Peter |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Doig, Peter | Harper, Joseph |
| Boyden, James (Bish Auck) | Dormand, J. D. | Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) |
| Bradley, Tom | Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Hart, Rt Hon Judith |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Duffy, A. E. P. | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Dunn, James A. | Hayman, Mrs Helene |
| Brown, Ronald (Hackney S) | Dunnett, Jack | Healey, Rt Hon Denis |
| Buchan, Norman | Eadie, Alex | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Buchanan, Richard | Edge, Geoff | Hooley, Frank |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | Hooson, Emlyn |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun) | Horam, John |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | English, Michael | Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H) |
| Campbell, Ian | Ennals, David | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) |
| Canavan, Dennis | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) |
| Cant, R. B. | Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Huckfield, Les |
| Carmichael, Neil | Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) |
| Carter, Ray | Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Faulds, Andrew | Hunter, Adam |
| Cartwright, John | Ferny hough, Rt Hn E. | Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Flannery, Martin | Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) | Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston) | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) |
| Janner, Greville | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Jeger, Mrs Lena | Molloy, William | Snape, Peter |
| Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Moonman, Eric | Spearing, Nigel |
| Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Stechford) | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| John, Brynmor | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Johnson, James (Hull West) | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Steel, David (Roxburgh) |
| Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | Stoddart, David |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Stott, Roger |
| Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Newens, Stanley | Strang, Gavin |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Noble, Mike | Strauss, Rt Hon G. R. |
| Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Oakes, Gordon | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Judd, Frank | Ogden, Eric | Swain, Thomas |
| Kaufman, Gerald | O'Halloran, Michael | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Kelley, Richard | O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Kerr, Russell | Orbach, Maurice | Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Kinnock, Neil | Ovenden, John | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Lambie, David | Owen, Dr David | Tierney, Sydney |
| Lamborn, Harry | Padley, Walter | Tinn, James |
| Lamond, James | Palmer, Arthur | Tomlinson, John |
| Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Park, George | Tomney, Frank |
| Leadbitter, Ted | Parry, Robert | Torney, Tom |
| Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Pavitt, Laurie | Tuck, Raphael |
| Lever, Rt Hon Harold | Peart, Rt Hon Fred | Urwin, T. W. |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Pendry, Tom | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Lipton, Marcus | Perry, Ernest | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| Litterick, Tom | Phipps, Dr Colin | Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd) |
| Loyden, Eddie | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Luard, Evan | Price, William (Rugby) | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Lyon, Alexander (York) | Radice, Giles | Ward, Michael |
| Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) | Watkins, David |
| Mabon, Dr J. Dickson | Richardson, Miss Jo | Watkinson, John |
| McCartney, Hugh | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Weetch, Ken |
| McElhone, Frank | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) | Wellbeloved, James |
| MacFarquhar, Roderick | Roderick, Caerwyn | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Rodgers, George (Chorley) | White, James (Pollok) |
| Mackenzie, Gregor | Rodgers, William (Stockton) | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Mackintosh, John P. | Rooker, J. W. | Whitlock, William |
| Maclennan, Robert | Roper, John | Wigley, Dafydd |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Rose, Paul B. | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| McNamara, Kevin | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Williams, Alan (Swansea W) |
| Madden, Max | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Magee, Bryan | Rowlands, Ted | Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford) |
| Mahon, Simon | Sandelson, Neville | Williams, W. T. (Warrington) |
| Mallalieu, J. P. W. | Sedgemore, Brian | Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) |
| Marks, Kenneth | Selby, Harry | Wilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton) |
| Marquand, David | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne) | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Shore, Rt Hon Peter | Woodall, Alec |
| Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C) | Woof, Robert |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Meacher, Michael | Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) | |
| Mendelson, John | Silverman, Julius | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mikardo, Ian | Skinner, Dennis | Mr. Thomas Cox and |
| Millan, Bruce | Small, William | Mr. James Hamilton. |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Critchley, Julian |
| Altken, Jonathan | Brotherton, Michael | Crouch, David |
| Alison, Michael | Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Crowder, F. P. |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Bryan, Sir Paul | Davies, Rt hon J. (Knutsford) |
| Arnold, Tom | Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Dean,Paul (N Somerset) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Budgen, Nick | Dodsworth, Geoffrey |
| Awdry, Daniel | Bulmer, Esmond | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Baker, Kenneth | Burden, F. A. | Drayson, Burnaby |
| Banks, Robert | Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | du Cann, Rt Hon Edward |
| Bell, Ronald | Carlisle, Mark | Dunlop, John |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) | Carson, John | Durant, Tony |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Eden, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Benyon, W. | Channon, Paul | Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Elliott, Sir William |
| Biffen, John | Clark, William (Croydon S) | Eyre, Reginald |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Clarke, Kenneth ([...]usncliffe) | Fairbairn, Nicholas |
| Blaker, Peter | Clegg, Walter | Farr, John |
| Body, Richard | Cockcroft, John | Fell, Anthony |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Finsberg, Geoffrey |
| Bottomley, Peter | Cope, John | Fisher, Sir Nigel |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) | Cordle, John H. | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Cormack, Patrick | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Corrie, John | Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) |
| Brittan, Leon | Costain, A. P. | Fox, Marcus |
| Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) | Loveridge, John | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Fry, Peter | Luce, Richard | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D. | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | McCrindle, Robert | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | McCusker, H. | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) |
| Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Macfarlane, Neil | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | MacGregor, John | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Godber, Rt Hon Joseph | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Goodhart, Philip | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Royle, Sir Anthony |
| Goodhew, Victor | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Sainsbury, Tim |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Madel, David | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Gorst, John | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Marten, Neil | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Mather, Carol | Shepherd, Colin |
| Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Maude, Angus | Shersby, Michael |
| Gray, Hamish | Mawby, Ray | Silvester, Fred |
| Grieve, Percy | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Sims, Roger |
| Griffiths, Eldon | Mayhew, Patrick | Sinclair, Sir George |
| Grist, Ian | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Grylls, Michael | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) |
| Hall, Sir John | Mills, Peter | Speed, Keith |
| Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Miscampbell, Norman | Spence, John |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Moate, Roger | Sproat, Iain |
| Hannam,John | Molyneaux, James | Stainton, Keith |
| Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss | Monro, Hector | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Havers, Sir Michael | Montgomery, Fergus | Stanley, John |
| Hawkins, Paul | Moore, John (Croydon C) | Steen, Anthony (Wavertree) |
| Hayhoe, Barney | Morgan, Geraint | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Heath, Rt Hon Edward | Morris, Michael (Northampton S) | Stokes, John |
| Hicks, Robert | Morrison, Charles (Devizes) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Higgins, Terence L. | Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | Tapsell, Peter |
| Holland, Philip | Mudd, David | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Hordern, Peter | Neave, Airey | Tebbit, Norman |
| Howell, David (Guildford) | Nelson, Anthony | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Hunt, John | Neubert, Michael | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Hutchison, Michael Clark | Newton, Tony | Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S) |
| Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) | Nott, John | Townsend, Cyril D. |
| James, David | Onslow, Cranley | Trotter Neville |
| Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd) | Oppenhelm, Mrs Sally | Tugendhat, Christopher |
| Jessel, Toby | Page, John (Harrow West) | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Jones, Arthur (Daventry) | Paisley, Rev Ian | Viggers, Peter |
| Jopling, Michael | Parkinson, Cecil | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Pattie, Geoffrey | Wakeham, John |
| Kaberry, Sir Donald | Penhaligon, David | Walder, David (Clitheroe) |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Percival, Ian | Wall, Patrick |
| Kershaw, Anthony | Peyton, Rt Hon John | Walters, Dennis |
| Kimball, Marcus | Pink, R. Bonner | Warren, Kenneth |
| King, Evelyn (South Dorset) | Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch | Weatherill, Bernard |
| King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Wells, John |
| Kitson, Sir Timothy | Prior, Rt Hon James | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Knight, Mrs Jill | Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Knox, David | Raison, Timothy | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Lamont, Norman | Rathbone, Tim | Wood, Rt Hon Richard |
| Lane, David | Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Latham, Michael (Melton) | Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) | Younger, Hon George |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Rees-Davies, W. R. | |
| Lawson, Nigel | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Le Merchant, Spencer | Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) | Mr. Jim Lester and |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Mr. Michael Roberts. |
| Lloyd, Ian |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.