Consumer Protection (Hansard, 20 December 1976)

§ 1. Mr. Freud
asked the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection what specific measures, if any, he proposes to bring forward in order to carry out the commitment in the Queen's Speech to attach high priority to safeguarding the interests of the consumer.

§ The Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection (Mr. Roy Hattersley)
My Department safeguards the interests of consumers over a broad front. We shall continue to apply and develop policies on price control and on the maintenance of competition, as well as encouraging the adoption of other measures to assist consumers, such as the 2 provision of consumer advice centres and local price surveys.

§ Mr. Freud
The whole House will be pleased that the Secretary of State protects the interests of consumers, but will he explain how he came to promise consumers an 8½p reduction in the price of a loaf of bread when it transpired that such a reduction, first, was untrue, second, would ruin all small bakers and, third, would accelerate a number of strikes which we could well do without?

§ Mr. Hattersley
Neither I nor any member of my Department ever promised an 8p or 8½p reduction. [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman who is making noises which I take to mean dissent has any evidence to the contrary, I hope that he will supply it. What my Department said, and what I stick to absolutely today, is that, as a result of the scheme I announced a week ago, in some shops after 3rd January bread will be cheaper than it would otherwise have been. If the hon. Member for Isle of Ely (Mr. Freud) or the hon. Lady the Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Oppenheim) and her hon. Friends believe that I should continue to keep bread prices artificially high, they had better say so.

§ Mr. Ioan Evans
Will my right hon. Friend take it that at a time of inflation the need for consumer protection is greater than ever and that the action already taken by the Government in protecting the consumer is well worth while? Will he encourage the advice centers 3 which have been set up and which are giving very good advice to consumers in various parts of the country, and will he consider other legislative measures to ensure that the housewife gets full value for what she spends?

§ Mr. Hattersley
I am grateful for what my hon. Friend says, and I shall certainly do my best to respond to his suggestion. As he knows, despite the financial stringency of the period ahead, I have told local authorities that money will be available next year for the continuation of consumer advice and consumer surveys. I believe that they are of vital importance to consumer protection work, but, unfortunately, we see that some Conservative-controlled local authorities do not intend to pursue that sort of protection. Again, I offer the hon. Lady the Member for Gloucester the opportunity to tell us whether she believes that Conservative local authorities should do that or whether they should abandon that attitude.

§ Mr. Montgomery
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could tell us where the idea of 8½p off a large loaf came from, in view of his reply to the hon. Member for Isle of Ely (Mr. Freud). Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this has given a lot of concern to a great many people and that only today, I believe, Sainsbury's unofficially announced that the most that anyone could expect off the price of a loaf of bread will be 1p, and this only in some shops and only for some consumers?

§ Mr. Hattersley
If that is what Sainsbury's has announced, it is something of an achievement that since we have removed ½p subsidy the bread price has come down. Secondly, it is exactly consistent with what I said a week ago and what I said a few moments ago. As for where the idea of the 8½p came from, I think that I can help the hon. Gentleman. He will see that the table is a sliding scale. Clearly, therefore, as the table must be boundless at either end, it has to include that figure. But the idea that I said it, that any of my Ministers said it or that any member of the staff of my Department said it is quite wrong. Indeed, if the hon. Gentleman, who, I know, is assiduous in these matters, had been listening to the radio on Monday afternoon when I was asked about the 4 size of reductions, he would know—I have the transcript—that I said, as I said also in my Press conference in the morning, that I could not possibly put figures on it. It was the market operating; I believe that the market had to operate and had to determine what the price would be.

§ Mrs. Sally Oppenheim
Is it not an extraordinary coincidence that every news commentator came forward with the figure of 8½p? Does not the right hon. Gentleman have the unique distinction of having alienated both the baking and the retailing sides of the industry, having caused a major confrontation between two unions, having deceived consumers as to what the reduction was likely to be, and having disguised from consumers the fact that some of them will be paying more for their bread as a result of his manipulation? Finally, is he aware that as a result of his high-handed and arrogant way of dealing with this matter he will go into the next round of pay negotiations as a Minister who is not trusted by industry, not trusted by the unions and not trusted by consumers?

§ Mr. Hattersley
I hope the hon. Lady feels that that was worth all the preparation. I have told her categorically that I did not say, and neither did anyone else in my Department say, that there would be a specific reduction in the price of bread. Since she has continued to assert the contrary, since she has my assurance about it, and since I can provide her with a great deal of evidence to substantiate what I say, if she did the proper thing she would withdraw the allegation, although I have no doubt that she will not do so. I assure the hon. Lady that I have some pleasure in knowing that, even according to the evidence supplied by her hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Montgomery), what I said last Monday is true. As a result of decisions which the Government took, in some shops bread will be cheaper than it would otherwise be. That seems to be absolutely my duty, and I am glad that I have continued to perform it. [AN HON. MEMBER: "How much?"] The hon. Gentleman, who obviously has not listened to anything I said, asks "How much?" Let me tell him again. It will be cheaper according to the way the market operates. As he and, no doubt, 5 Professor Milton Friedman understand, one cannot predict the operation of the market.