HC Deb 06 December 1976 vol 922 cc5-7
4. Mr. Wyn Roberts

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate he has made of the annual salary and cost of individual Members of the Welsh Assembly.

Mr. John Morris

I refer the hon. Member to the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum to the Scotland and Wales Bill. I will in due course fix the initial salaries and allowances, but it will be for the Assembly itself to take the final decision.

Mr. Roberts

In view of the fact that, in addition to the Members of the Assembly, who according to the preamble to the Bill will cost £2½ million a year, there will be the necessity for 1,300 civil servants at a cost of £10 million a year, will the Secretary of State now withdraw his oft-repeated statement that devolution does not mean an extra tier of government?

Mr. Morris

The hon. Gentleman knows full well that this is not an extra tier but is the existing tier of government. It is the whole range of responsibilities which are now being carried out by the nominated bodies in Wales. We never hear Tories attacking them. The Tory Party knows that it is a permanent minority party in Wales. The nominated bodies are the means whereby the Tory Party seeks to perpetuate its control over Wales, in or out of office. We know that so far no Tory Prime Minister has appointed a Secretary of State for Wales from among Welsh Members.

Mr. Abse

Will my right hon. and learned Friend come back to the original Question instead of scattering fire at targets which are not in existence? Is it not a fact that the cost of each Assembly man, together with the support that he gets, is now declared to be £31,250, which means that 80 Assembly men will receive £2½ million by way of salary and support? Is it not also a fact that it will cost £7,692 for every one of the 1,300 civil servants who are to be appointed at a total cost of £10 million? How can the Secretary of State expect local authorities throughout Wales to reduce their expenditure at a time when he is embarking upon an extravaganza which is repellent to the overwhelming majority of the people of Wales?

Mr. Morris

I am sure that my hon. Friend will develop those points at length in the course of the devolution debates. This is the price of democracy. Whatever Government are in power in Westminster, I want to ensure that there is democratic government in Wales.

Mr. Wigley

Will the Secretary of State draw the attention of his hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) and the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts) to Clause 86 of the Bill, which empowers the Assembly to dissolve nominated bodies in Wales? Will he calculate the benefit and the cost saving from so doing and indicate that a 2 per cent. improvement in efficiency in the spending of the block allocation would more than repay the costs of the Assembly?

Mr. Morris

These matters must be put in the right perspective. If we were to have better control over some of the nominated bodies in Wales—indeed, more democratic control, which is what I am after—I am sure that it would lead to better, more efficient and economical government.

Mr. Roberts

Is it not a fact that we shall continue to have nominated bodies, the only difference being that they will be nominated by the Assembly rather than by the Secretary of State?

Mr. Morris

If the hon. Gentleman will study the Bill, he will find a power to enable the Assembly—I sincerely hope that it will use it—to take it upon itself—

Mr. Roberts indicated dissent.

Mr. Morris

There is no reason for the hon. Gentleman to shake his head—to subsume the responsibilities of many of these bodies. That is what I want to see in Wales.