HC Deb 06 December 1976 vol 922 cc26-8
31. Mr. Adley

asked the Lord President of the Council at what stage of the legislative process he intends to consider the introduction of a referendum on devolution.

Mr. John Smith

The Scotland and Wales Bill is now before Parliament. The Government could not accept proposals for referenda which would delay its passage, but if proposals are made by the House for referenda at a later stage the Government will give them careful consideration.

Mr. Adley

Is the Minister of State aware that many of those who do not believe that Scotland belongs to England nevertheless believe that the Government's proposals are motivated more by political than by constitutional considerations? Does he accept that there would be a deal more sympathy for the Government's proposals if they genuinely sought to discover the views of the people of Scotland and Wales on the fundamental question of a desire for devolution before presenting legislation to the House backed merely by phrases such as those uttered by his hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) just now?

Mr. Smith

Obviously, a question of judgment is involved in terms of what the people of Scotland and Wales want. Our view is that the people of Scotland and Wales want these proposals, and we were elected on a manifesto which included them.

Mr. Abse

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is on the Order Paper a reasoned amendment calling for a referendum at this stage in Scotland and Wales, so that the people of Wales, in particular, can have the opportunity of registering a view that is already reflected in opinion polls, namely, that they want nothing to do with the Bill? Therefore, if the Minister really wants to enable the people of Wales to say what they want, at this stage, before it is too late, will he make it quite clear that the Government are ready to allow a free vote in the House so that Members can vote and decide whether the Bill should or should not include a clause dealing with a referendum?

Mr. Smith

The latter part of my hon. Friend's question is not for me. The earlier part of his question is concerned with whether the proposals are desired in Scotland and Wales. The party of which both my hon. Friend and I are members fought an election on a manifesto that contained those proposals, and the Government see no reason to depart from them.

Mr. George Gardiner

Does the Minister's open mind on the question of referenda in connection with devolution extend to the English?

Mr. Smith

The Government will consider proposals at a later stage. All these matters can be aired then.

Mrs. Bain

Will the Minister of State clarify whether hon. Members such as the hon. Members for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) and Pontypool (Mr. Abse) were aware of the manifesto on which they fought the last election? Does he accept that a growing number of people in Scotland want independence as a logical step, and would brook no delay at this stage if a referendum were to be held to stop an Assembly from being set up? Will he guarantee that if there is a referendum we shall have separate questions for each constitutent part of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Smith

Questions of detail about referenda are better left until we consider the matter. Talking about manifesto commitments, I wonder whether the hon. Lady will confirm whether people who voted for the Scottish National Party knew that they would be in alliance with the House of Lords to frustrate the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill and cause great difficulties for the working people of Scotland.

Mr. Buchan

Is it not curious that the Scottish National Party, which claims to speak for the people of Scotland, is terrified of the idea of an honest referendum? Is my hon. Friend aware that many of us believe that we gave certain pledges in the manifesto and that any referendum —I want one—should be held after the Bill is through, so that we know what is being voted for? Thirdly, does he agree that for Scotland the referendum must be on two questions—first, on the question of devolution and, secondly, on the question of independence, so that we can test the pretensions of the Scottish National Party?

Mr. Smith

I have carefully noted what my hon. Friend said. He has expounded this view carefully before. I cannot go further than saying that the Government will consider these proposals at a later stage.

Mr. Marten

Does the Minister of State agree that devolution includes not only devolution downwards to Scotland and Wales but also upwards to the European Parliament? If we are to have a referendum on devolution downwards, may we equally have one on devolution upwards to the European Parliament?

Mr. Smith

The hon. Gentleman will correct me if I am wrong, but I have a faint recollection that we had a referendum on that matter some time ago. I am sure that he will read the Bill with care. Perhaps it will satisfy him a little to know that there are no proposals in the Bill for devolution upwards.