HC Deb 02 December 1976 vol 921 cc1148-50
7. Mr. Pardoe

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many violent deaths there have been in Northern Ireland to date in the current year; and in how many of these the persons responsible have been brought to trial.

Mr. Mason

So far this year there have been 285 deaths attributable to the security situation in Northern Ireland, and 91 persons have so far been charged in respect of 49 of these.

Mr. Pardoe

Does the Minister recognise that the first part of his answer gives a totally appalling figure, and that it shows that there has been no improvement in the security situation in all the time that British troops have been in Northern Ireland? Does he not recognise that there is a limit to how far this country can go on pursuing a policy that gives no hope of success?

Mr. Powell

Which country?

Mr. Mason

I would point out to the hon. Gentleman that of the 285 deaths, 119 were sectarian and interfactional killings, which are not the responsibility of the security forces. These deaths were caused by Irish people themselves killing their own kinfolk, crossing the sectarian divide for sectarian reasons. The security forces have great difficulty in trying to control that sort of situation. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not giving hope, succour and aid to the "Troops Out" movement, when he utters those sorts of words in the Chamber.

Mr. Flannery

Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that the number of killings in Northern Ireland over a period is not entirely due to the stability, or lack of it, in the security situation, but is due to the political situation in Northern Ireland? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the fact that these deaths continue on an ever-increasing scale seems to indicate that our political line on this situation at least needs further and deeper exploration? Will my right hon. Friend therefore take into account that some type of conference must be called at some stage, involving all the groupings involved, in order to establish a new political alignment and prevent these deaths, no matter what the security situation happens to be at that moment?

Mr. Mason

I think that there is some substance in what my hon. Friend says about the importance of the social problem in Northern Ireland—with so many people out of work, the school leaver problem and young people not being able to find a job and therefore being fodder for para-military organisations. There is a major social problem, and it is my intention, while I am responsible for governing the Province, to bring the economic and social problems to the fore, to force the politicians and the unions to spend more time on them, and to try to tackle, partly in that way, the security problem that is inherent in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Neave

Is the Secretary of State aware that the withdrawal of the British Army at the present time would lead to a far more terrible situation than exists today? Will he make his position clear on that once again? We will give him our full support, as we have done in the past. Is it not true that the level of violence in Northern Ireland is intolerable, and that it will not be stopped until the Secretary of State is able to take steps to put out of circulation for a long time the people who are organising it? Will he, in particular, say what steps he is taking to deal with the high level of juvenile crime, which is causing very great concern to the Royal Ulster Constabulary and others at the present time?

Mr. Mason

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for what he says. The Army, which now numbers 14,500 in Northern Ireland, will stay there as long as the security situation warrants it.

The RUC has already charged 116 terrorists with murder this year. Gradually, it is taking out of society the murderers, the assassins and the major criminals who are operating in Northern Ireland, and putting them behind bars for a long time without any political status.

With reference to the "Troops Out" movement, I think that any responsible commentator on the Irish scene would be very hesitant to put forward the theory that peace could be quickly restored if the Army were withdrawn. Most people would recognise that the result might be a bloodbath in Northern Ireland, spilling over to major cities in Great Britain as well.