§ Queen's Recommendation having been signified
§
Motion made, and Question proposed.
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the establishment of two bodies corporate to be called British Aerospace and British Shipbuilders, it is expedient to authorise—
§ 12.14 a.m.
§ Mr. Michael Grylls (Surrey, North-West)I make no apology except to my hon. Friends for speaking at this late hour. I think that the House is fully entitled to an explanation from the Financial Secretary about the amount of money that has been spent by the Organising Committees for British Aerospace and British Shipbuilders. I put down a Question on this two days ago and the Answer was £393,000—nearly £400,000 in 364 days. That is pretty fast spending even by this Government. It is about £1,000 a day, spent by the Organising Committees, since the Second Reading debate.
We are in a very special position because that was during the last Session and the Bill fell. I think we are entitled to ask where that money will come from. The Bill is now proceeding in this Session of Parliament, and most Conservatives believe that sooner or later the Bill will fall again, thanks to the continuing opposition of the House of Lords, of Lord Shinwell and the Cross-Bench peers. If that happens, where will the money come from? The House is entitled to ask on what authority the money has been spent. I understand that when industries are nationalised, the Organising Committees have no authority to spend this money. I wish that the Secretary of State would pay attention to what I am saying.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern)Order. I appeal to right hon. 1100 and hon. Members to keep their conversations very low. I cannot hear what the hon. Member for Surrey, North-West (Mr. Grylls) is saying.
§ Mr. GryllsI am grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We want to conclude this debate quickly and the more the Secretary of State listens to what I have to say, the quicker we can dispose of the resolution.
With what authority have Ministers encouraged the committees to spend this money? They may be putting the accounting officer in the Department of Industry in an embarrassing position. About £400,000 has been spent and the Comptroller and Auditor-General may have to appear before the Public Accounts Committee to explain on what authority it has been spent. This is not a question of petty cash. We know that the petty cash till at the Department of Industry is big, but it does not extend to sums of this size being paid without the authority of Parliament.
It is an intriguing situation and the House is entitled to ask, even at this late hour, how the money has been spent. I seek information from the Financial Secretary. The Secretary of State has washed his hands of the matter. He is not even listening. He and his fellow Ministers are a disgrace to Parliament. My hon. Friends and I may speak from the Opposition Benches, but we are as entitled as anyone else to ask about public expenditure.
§ Sir David Renton (Huntingdonshire)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The whole House except the Secretary of State and one of the newly-appointed members of the Government is listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, North-West (Mr. Grylls). The Ministers are carrying on a conversation and utterly disregarding my hon. Friend who has specifically been directing his remarks, through you, to the Secretary of State. Is the right hon. Gentleman's action not a great discourtesy to the House?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThe occupant of the Chair has enough responsibilities without directing hon. Members to pay attention to what is being said or to conduct their conversations quietly.
§ Mr. GryllsI take the point of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Sir D. Renton).
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I am afraid that the Secretary of State is now probably deliberately carrying on with his conversation. I hope that he is not doing so in order to be disrespectful to what the Chair has just said.
§ Mr. GryllsMinisters have the opportunity to listen. Let the country judge them for not listening. They do not care twopence for the fact that tax-payers' money is being thrown away in this disgraceful fashion.
The Financial Secretary has some responsibility in this matter. He may be listening, though it does not look as if he is. However, he is a courteous Minister and I shall give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he is listening.
Has the money been spent on first-class travel, cigars and wine for the committees? I do not know and we ought to know. Has it been spent in their boardrooms-if they have boardrooms? We have not been told. Has it been spent in their offices? Judging by their addresses, the committees are not pigging it. The committee for the aircraft industry is in Victoria Street and the other committee is at 12–18 Grosvenor Gardens, a respectable and rather expensive address which it shares with the National Enterprise Board. If the members of the committee are nesting in Lord Ryder's office, how much rent are they paying him? We do not know that, but we do know that a great deal of this money is being spent on salaries. Certainly these salaries are not chicken feed.
The Chairman, Admiral Sir Anthony Griffin, is receiving £23,300 a year. [HON. MEMBERS: "Disgraceful."] There is a lot more to come. The Chief Executive-designate, Mr. J. Graham Day, a distinguished Canadian business man I presume, is being paid £19,300. His situation is more serious, because we are told that he is on the verge of resigning. He said on Saturday in the Press:
Things are very difficult, and I am thinking what my position is. I am sure that applies to everyone on the Organising Committee.He went on to say how unhappy he was about the situation.
§ Mr. Peter Rost (Derbyshire South-East)Perhaps the Secretary of State would explain what these people are doing to earn these salaries. One 1102 assumes that the businesses have not been nationalised yet.
§ Mr. GryllsThat is a very positive point. However, I can report on what one of these generals has been doing—Lord Beswick, the Chairman of the Organising Committee of the British Aerospace Corporation, who is paid the modest salary of £23,000 a year. He, at least, has been partially involved in sitting on the Committee of Privileges of the House of Lords earlier this year on the Lord Ampthill paternity case. Therefore he has been well employed. I do not know whether he drew his salary while he was sitting on that case. It does seem rather a strange occupation.
I can report on one other general—Mr. Leslie Buck, a distinguished trade unionist, who is President of the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions, and General Secretary of the National Union of Sheet Metal Workers, Coppersmiths, Heating and Domestic Engineers. He is a busy man, but there has been no incomes policy for him. He has had £16,000 a year since the Organising Committee came into being, so he has not been pigging it either.
If, as we believe, this Bill falls again, are these gentlemen getting compensation? What are the terms of their service agreements, and what will be the cost to the taxpayers of paying them off when they are no longer wanted to run corporations which are no longer there? The House and the country are entitled to know. It is obvious that the £400,000 of expenditure up to 22nd November 1976—the date of the Answer to my Parliamentary Question—is only the tip of the iceberg. When this Bill finally falls there will be a lot of compensation to pay. There is no doubt that there has been a gross misuse of this amount of money in the past 12 months. To coin a phrase of the Secretary of State for the Environment, it is a gross act of folly to spend this sort of money.
If we do not get more detailed anwers tonight on how the money is being spent and the commitment of the taxpayers' money in the future, we should firmly vote against this Money Resolution because it is one more example of this spendthrift Government.
§ 12.24 a.m.
§ Mr. John Nott (St. Ives)I had hoped to ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to divide against the Money Resolution immediately. It seeks approval for very large sums of money. However, as Labour Members do not seem to take the simple item of expenditure of £400,000 seriously, I think I should, instead, fully support my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, North-West (Mr. Grylls) and continue to press the point that he has brought to the attention of the House.
What my hon. Friend is complaining about is that nearly £400,000 has been spent on an Organising Committee that so far has nothing to organise. This is a proper matter for the House on a Money Resolution of this kind. Of course we can accept—my hon. Friend will agree with me—that the Organising Committee has had a function to pursue a little purposeful planning, but it has had no physical function to perform other than some relaxed thinking while the Bill has been proceeding through Parliament. It has had the duty of indulging in some dining, wining and entertaining of visitors from overseas who might be interested in our industry, but it is hard to believe that in these austere times this thinking, dining and entertaining can have added up to £393,675 in just one calendar year.
I hope that the House will not carefully that, in reply to my hon. Friend's question, the answer was not that the amount was, say, £350,000 or £395,000. The answer was that the actual expenditure was £393,675, which means that someone in the public sector, possibly someone in the Treasury, is watching, counting and adding up precisely what the Organising Committee has been spending.
I know that my hon. Friend would not be so impertinent as to inquire into the petty cash and entertaining expenses of these highly paid, albeit elderly, gentlemen who are now chairmen of these organising bodies—Lord Beswick and Admiral Sir Anthony Griffin.
But we in the House have an obligation to show that we are ever vigilant about expenses in the nationalised industries now that Lord Short is taking over the chairmanship of Cable and Wireless and Lord Balogh has, at the age of 70, 1104 moved to the British National Oil Corporation.
§ Mr. Ian Gow (Eastbourne)Is my hon. Friend right in saying that the former Lord President of the Council has now been sent to another place?
§ Mr. NottI am not sure whether he has actually arrived there yet, but clearly if his arrival there will enable him to draw this sum of money—nearly £400,000 —for presiding over a nationalised industry, or indeed an Organising Committee without anything yet to organise, we wish to ask the same questions in relation to the future Lord Short as we now ask in relation to Lord Beswick.
§ Mr. Nicholas Ridley (Cirencester and Tewkesbury)Is my hon. Friend aware that Mr. Edward Short has not been made a peer because it is not entirely certain that the Government can rely upon him to support this measure like all the other measures?
§ Mr. NottPossibly, like others of his friends, Mr. Short will find the remuneration as Chairman of Cable and Wireless rather more satisfying than the attendance allowance in the House of Lords and for that reason, and perhaps other reasons, he is quite satisfied with the post he has received.
It is possible that there is a simple explanation for this sum, but I should like the Financial Secretary to say precisely where this sum of money will fall. First, when I knew that this subject would arise I had a brief look at the relevant Estimates and Supplementary Estimates to see to what extent this expenditure was exceeding the provision which had been made for it, but no Estimate exists. I understand from an answer given by the Secretary of State for Industry that this expenditure of £393,675 is to fall directly on the Contingency Reserve, to be reimbursed subsequently if the corporations are established.
This is quite interesting because it seems to be in conflict with Clauses 14 and 15, which make it clear that the capital of these industries shall amount merely to the compensation amounts being paid out for the underlying industries. But more than that, the Contingency Fund has never been intended to 1105 provide these sums for Organising Committees that have been delayed in performing their functions as a result of legislation taking rather longer than was anticipated in the House of Commons.
I ask the Minister to provide information on the following items. First, what is the breakdown of the expenditure of £393,000? How has it arisen? It cannot have arisen solely on Lord Beswick's salary of £23,000 and on the salary of the admiral. It must have arisen to a large extent by taking extremely expensive premises. In last Sunday's Press the Chief Executive of British Shipbuilders—I quote from what he is alleged to have said—appears to have said:
When the Bill fell in Parliament, the appointments technically lapsed, though there is, of course, an ongoing employment relationship,That was Mr. Day, who is the Chief Executive of British Shipbuilders. I understand that he is receiving nearly £20,000 a year. Have the appointments lapsed, or are they still in being?Are the expenses to be transferred from the Contingency Fund, which we have always understood from the Chancellor is to be examined in detail by the Cabinet? We understood that that was one of the new rules applying to the Contingency Fund but when will the transfer be made from the Contingency Fund to the capital of these industries? Under Clauses 14 and 15 it is not clear how these debts, which have been incurred outside the underlying companies which are being acquired can be transferred to the industries.
Finally, may we know what will happen to this sum if the Bill were to fall in another place? Would it then appear on a departmental Vote—namely, the Vote of the Department of Industry? Perhaps the Minister will answer those questions. They are serious questions that relate to the financial procedures of the House.
My hon. Friend the Member for Surrey, North-West has raised a small but interesting point on a significant sum incurred by a body that as far as we know has not been statutorily established, a body that is to organise something that does not yet exist. These are all matters of importance to the House, even though it is late at night.
§ 12.34 a.m.
§ Mr. Norman Tebbit (Chingford)There is one small point on which I should like the Minister's help. I make it plain at the outset that I am not particularly in the game of knocking those who have the job of running a nationalised industry, which is an extraordinary difficult job to do. Many of them are presently considerably underpaid for the responsibilities that they take. Many of them undertake difficult jobs in a manner that is quite exemplary, especially considering some of the stick that they get for the jobs that they attempt to do.
§ Mr. J. W. Rooker (Birmingham, Perry Barr)From the hon. Member's side—
§ Mr. TebbitFrom both sides. We have heard some criticism of Sir Frank Mcfadzean recently that has been totally unjustified.
The point is that £400,000 has been expended on the Organising Committees. It would appear that a substantial amount of it must have been spent on salaries. As I look at the list of those who have been appointed to posts on the Organising Committees I notice that most of them are already in employment elsewhere. Certainly Lord Beswick is not in that position. I do not think that there is anyone else who could be found to employ him these days, but most of the others have other jobs.
The intriguing point is that the Government's view is that, under the social contract, in assessing whether a person's salary is limited by the £8,500-a-year cut-off from any further increases in emoluments, one should aggregate the total of his salaries from all employment. That makes the matter much more interesting.
For example, as I look at the composition of the Organising Committees for British Aerospace I find Lord Beswick, who has no other job; Mr. Allen Greenwood, the Chairman of the British Aircraft Corporation; Mr. George Jefferson, the Chairman and Managing Director of the Guided Weapons Division of BAC; Mr. Eric Rubythorn, the General Manager of Hawker-Siddeley Aviation; Mr. John Stamper, the Technical Director of Hawker-Siddeley; Mr. Leslie Buck, the President of the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions; and 1107 Dr. Austin Pearee, the Chairman of Esso Petroleum. [HON. MEMBERS: "All good men."] I am not disputing their merit. However, it is unlikely that any one of them is paid very far under the £8,500 limit. So where has the money been expended?
I hope that the Minister will tell us how much of the money has gone on salaries for members of the Organising Committee. It may be that it was all fair and above board. It is to be expected that it was. But it would not be right if those who have to abide by the pay limits of the social contract were left with any doubt in their minds about whether everybody else was abiding by them, too. The Minister should readily and easily be able to tell us how much of the £390,000 has been expended on the salaries of the members of the Organising Committee.
§ 12.38 p.m.
§ Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles (Winchester)I hope that the House will understand that I am not opposed to retired admirals receiving excellent salaries which they thoroughly deserve. I want the Minister to answer one important question when he replies to the debate. Why did he not make honest men of these retired admirals and others? Why did not the Government take the 95 per cent. of the loaf in their grasp and then introduce a short, sharp Bill to add ship repairing afterwards? Was it because they knew that trouble was coming in the shipbuilding industry and they wanted to pin the fault for that on the Opposition? [Interruption.] Does the Minister wish to say anything? Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thought that I heard the Minister say "Why the bloody hell" something or other that I did not catch.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThe hon. and gallant Gentleman anticipated my rising to ask what that has to do with the motion before the House.
§ Rear-Admiral Morgan-GilesThat is exactly what I want to know, Mr. Deputy Speaker. [Laughter.]
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI shall give the hon. and gallant Gentleman the answer: nothing whatsoever.
§ Rear-Admiral Morgan-GilesPerhaps the Minister will tell the House and the 1108 country why the Government did not take the 95 per cent. of the Bill and add the bit about ship repairing afterwards. That is what we want to know.
§ 12.39 p.m.
§ The Under-Secretary of State for Industry (Mr. Les Huckfield)I have listened carefully to the contributions which have been made in this short debate. I do not think that any of them have done anybody any credit. I refer particularly to the speech by the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles) who, as far as I can recollect, until now has not made any contribution during the whole of the debates on the Bill. For him to come in at this late stage and make a point which has been carefully rehearsed several times today displays a contempt not only of the House, but of his own party.
Tonight we have heard some of the most squalid personal attacks and insinuations that we have heard in the Chamber for a long time. Those attacks have come particularly from the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott). I hope that some of the people whom he has attacked and who are in no position to answer back will take careful note of the squalid and personal way in which he has made his remarks tonight.
The Secretary of State has already paid tribute to the excellent and hard work being done by both Organising Committees. That is particularly relevant
§ Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South-West)Will the Minister give way?
§ Mr. HuckfieldI shall not give way because the hon. Member for Staffordshire, South-West (Mr. Cormack), who never attends the debate, is always intervening.
Those who have been involved in the Bill throughout its various stages, unlike those hon. Members who have contributed tonight, know that both the Organising Committee for British Shipbuilders and the Organising Committee for British Aerospace have been undertaking a long, detailed and intensive series of studies on the future of both industries. Hon. Members may not know that the Organising Committee for British Shipbuilders has personally visited nearly every shipyard in the country. The 1109 Organising Committee for British Aerospace has taken part in a number of initiatives with our possible collaborative partners in future projects. Those who have met members of the committees and those who have participated in discussions can testify to the hard and unstinting work done by members of the Organising Committees.
If hon. Members want to know where some of the money has gone, I can tell them that it has gone in paying the salaries of members of the committees and of small staffs, and in paying rent. The pity of it is that hon. Member have tonight attacked members of the Organising Committees some of whom have given their services free.
Considering that the committees represent the best way of saving the two industries and the best way of saving hundreds of thousands of jobs throughout the country, the Opposition should be praising instead of attacking them for their work.
§ Mr. Michael Marshall (Arundel): rose—
§ Mr. HuckfieldI shall not give way to the hon. Member for Arundel (Mr. Marshall) because he is an intruder into these debates.
§ Mr. Michael MarshallGive way.
§ Mr. HuckfieldThe expenditure by both—
§ Mr. Michael MarshallGive way.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member for Arundel (Mr. Marshall) knows full well that if the Minister does not wish to give way, he does not give way.
§ Mr. HuckfieldThe expenditure by both committees is carefully controlled. It has not been excessive, bearing in mind their arduous work. If hon. Members are really worried about the amount spent by the Organising Committees, they have the answer in their own hands. Had they not deliberately delayed this Bill so much, the period for which the Organising Committees have had to work would not have been so long.
I also want to refute the suggestion made by the hon. Member for St. Ives that something underhand—in his kind 1110 of language—appears to have taken place, because all that is happening—
§ Mr. Michael MarshallOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order at this late hour for the Minister to talk about this blanket sum and not to give a breakdown?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerI have no control over what the Minister says, except in respect of parliamentary language.
§ Mr. HuckfieldHon. Members on the Opposition Benches know that it is a perfectly normal and usual convention for Organising Committees for future nationalised industries to be set up after the Second Reading of the relevant Bill and for their expenses to be defrayed from the Contingencies Fund.
Hon. Members on the Opposition Benches know that the Second Reading of this Bill took place in this House a year ago and that the Second Reading has just taken place once more to resolve any kinds of doubts. We are dealing with exactly the same Bill, for the purpose of the Parliament Act, as we dealt with a year ago. I do not think that any kind of convention has been abused, or any kind of impropriety has been committed.
§ Mr. Gryllsrose—
§ Mr. HuckfieldIf hon. Members—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I am sure that hon. Members would like to hear the Minister's reply, because the debate will finish in a few minutes.
§ Mr. HuckfieldIf hon. Members—
§ Mr. Gryllsrose—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I hope that I shall not have to call again upon hon. Members to resume their seats when the Minister does not give way.
§ Mr. HuckfieldIf hon. Members opposite—and particularly the hon. Member who spoke first—had any doubts about the continuity of the Organising Committees, they know that those doubts have been resolved by the vote of the House tonight. We are merely following once more the convention whereby Organising Committees continue after the Second 1111 Reading of the Bill. For the hon. Member to make the kind of comments that he did shows that he simply does not understand the way that these matters work.
As I say, this is quite a normal, customary convention, about which my right hon. Friend has been perfectly above board and open. In fact, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry said in an answer on 31st March—and I shall quote what my right hon. Friend said for the benefit of those hon. Members on the Opposition Benches who keep asking questions from a sedentary position—
such expenditure as the Committees may incur on the necessary preparatory work to enable the two Corporations to exercise their statutory functions after Royal Assent to the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill shall be met from the Contingencies Fund. The fund will be reimbursed by the two Corporations concerned when they are set up."—[Official Report, 31st March 1976; Vol. 908, c. 507.]We have written undertakings to that effect from the two Corporations.
§ Mr. Gryllsrose—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I appeal to hon. Members to respect the Standing Orders of the House. It is my duty, as a servant of the House, to see that the Standing Orders are observed.
§ Mr. HuckfieldI want to say again—
§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)Come on.
§ Mr. HuckfieldObviously the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton). with all his wisdom and experience of the shipyards, needs to listen to debates such as this. He ought to know, as I have said previously, that he has had many opportunities for making points such as those that have been made tonight, as have his hon. Friends. As I say, the practice that has been adopted for the funding of these two Organising Committees—
§ Mr. Nicholas Wintertonrose—
§ Mr. Huckfield—was made clear—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. Nicholas WintertonI thank the Minister for giving way. I am most grateful to him.
§ Mr. Huckfield rose—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. As I observed the situation, the Minister thought that I was rising to ask the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) to resume his seat. Mr. Huckfield.
§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton rose—
§ Mr. Patrick Mayhew (Royal Tunbridge Wells)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Minister has complained that my hon. Friends are asking questions from a sedentary position. When they rise, the Minister refuses to give way and you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, tell them to sit down. Will you tell the Minister that his behaviour is provocative and ought not to be repeated?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I appeal to hon. Members on this matter. There are only a few minutes left for the debate. Let us part peacefully early in the morning. The Standing Order is specific about the conduct of hon. Members. When they rise to make an intervention, if an hon. Member who has the Floor of the House refuses to give way, they must resume their seat. If on being called upon by the occupant of the Chair to observe the Standing Order an hon. Member refuses to do so, he has to take the consequences.
§ Mr. GryllsOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it correct, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that in a debate on a Financial Resolution, when the Minister refuses to say how the money that has been spent in the previous Session is accounted for, he can continue refusing to answer when the House quite clearly wants an answer to that and how the money is broken down? That is what we are here for.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThat is not a point of order.
§ Mr. HuckfieldI hope that the House will take note that the main interrupters in this short debate have been precisely those people who never contributed to any of the previous debates on this subject. I hope that their hon. Friends will note who is making the interruptions and who is preventing me from giving this information to the House. I hope that their hon. Friends will take very careful 1113 note of who are the Opposition Members who are preventing me from giving the information which I seek to give to the House.
§ Mr. Nicholas WintertonI have been urging the hon. Gentleman to give it for the last half hour.
§ Mr. HuckfieldWe get quite used to the schoolboy tones of the hon. Member for Macclesfield. We knew him when he was in Warwickshire. We got rid of him from Warwickshire, and very soon the people will get rid of him from Macclesfield.
§ Mr. Nicholas Wintertonrose—
§ Mr. HuckfieldI shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman. As I have been—
§ Mr. Nicholas WintertonOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the Minister to refer to an hon. Member repeatedly and then refuse to give way to him?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThere is nothing in the Standing Orders that gives any powers to the Chair to compel the Minister to give way.
§ Mr. HuckfieldWhat I keep trying to get through to one or two, perhaps unhearing, hon. Gentlemen opposite is that the Government have made their procedures clear from the beginning over the funding of these two Organising Committees. It was made utterly clear beyond all reasonable doubt in the answer that was given by my right hon. Friend to which I referred. I repeat that the answer is at column 507—
§ Mr. Tebbitrose—
§ Mr. HuckfieldI assure the House that the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) is the last person to whom I shall give way.
All that we are talking about tonight is a Money Resolution that is identical
§ in all significant respects to the one that the House passed a year ago.
§ Mr. HuckfieldNo. The only slight change that has been made reflects an amendment that was passed on Report in this House in relation to Clause 11. The amendment added to the excluded loans mentioned in Clause 11(9) loans guaranteed under Section 10 of the Industry Act 1972. The Money Resolution has been amended to cover that point. All that hon. Members are exercising themselves about tonight is a Money Resolution that is in all significant respects identical to the one that this House agreed to a year ago.
§ Mr. Nicholas WintertonAnswer the question.
§ Mr. HuckfieldI do not understand why hon. Gentlemen opposite are asking the kind of questions that they have asked, when I have already given to the House the main heads of information that they seek. I have already given a breakdown of the expenditure, and I have tried to tell the House how the money has been spent by the two Organising Committees.
I have already tried to tell Conservative Members about the hard work that has been done by these Organising Committees, and tribute has been paid to them and to the chairmen for the work that they have done. I believe that the money that has been provided for these Organising Committees represents the best chance of saving the industries. I believe, too, that it represents the best chance of saving hundreds of thousands of jobs.
It being three-quarters of an hour after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER put the Question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted Business).
§ Question put:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 286, Noes 261.
1119| Division No. 8.] | AYES | [12.58 a.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Atkinson, Norman | Bishop, E. S. |
| Aileen, Frank | Bain, Mrs Margaret | Blenkinsop, Arthur |
| Anderson, Donald | Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Boardman, H. |
| Archer, Peter | Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Booth, Rt Hon Albert |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Bates, Alf | Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur |
| Ashley, Jack | Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Boyden, James (Bish Auck) |
| Ashton, Joe | Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Bradley, Tom |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Bidwell, Sydney | Bray, Dr Jeremy |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Proven) | Hayman, Mrs Helene | O'Halloran, Michael |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Buchan, Norman | Hefter, Eric S. | Ovenden, John |
| Buchanan, Richard | Henderson, Douglas | Owen, Rt Hon Dr David |
| Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green) | Hooley, Frank | Padley, Walter |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Horam, John | Palmer, Arthur |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H) | Park, George |
| Campbell, Ian | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Parker, John |
| Canavan, Dennis | Huckfield, Les | Parry, Robert |
| Cant, R. B. | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Pendry, Tom |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Perry, Ernest |
| Carter, Ray | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg |
| Cartwright, John | Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill) | Prescott, John |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) | Price, C. (Lewisham W) |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Jackson, Colin (Brighouse) | Price, William (Rugby) |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Radice, Giles |
| Cohen, Stanley | Janner, Greville | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) |
| Coleman, Donald | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Reid, George |
| Colquhoun, Ms Maureen | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Concannon, J. D. | John, Brynmor | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Johnson, James (Hull West) | Robertson, John (Paisley) |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) | Robinson, Geoffrey |
| Corbett, Robin | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Roderick, Caerwyn |
| Cowans, Harry | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Rodgers, George (Chorley) |
| Crawshaw, Richard | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) |
| Cronin, John | Judd, Frank | Rooker, J. W. |
| Crosland, Rt Hon Anthony | Kaufman, Gerald | Rose, Paul B. |
| Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Kelley, Richard | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) |
| Cryer, Bob | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Rowlands, Ted |
| Cunningham, G. (Islington S) | Kinnock, Neil | Ryman, John |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh) | Lambie, David | Sandelson, Neville |
| Davidson, Arthur | Lamborn, Harry | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Lamond, James | Selby, Harry |
| Davies, Denzil (Llanelli) | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) |
| Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Leadbitter, Ted | Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne) |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Lee, John | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Deakins, Eric | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Short, Mrs Renee (Wolv NE) |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Lever, Rt Hon Harold | Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) |
| Dell, Rt Hon Edmund | Lipton, Marcus | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Dempsey, James | Litterick, Tom | Sillers, James |
| Doig, Peter | Loyden, Eddie | Silverman, Julius |
| Dormand, J. D. | Luard, Evan | Skinner, De[...]nis |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | Lyon, Alexander (York) | Small, William |
| Dunn, James A. | Lyons, Edward (Bradford W) | Smith, John (N Lanarkshire) |
| Dunnett, Jack | Mabon, Dr J. Dickson | Snape, Peter |
| Eadie, Alex | McCartney, Hugh | Spearing, Nigel |
| Edge, Geoff | McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | McElhone, Frank | Stallard, A. W. |
| Ellis, John (Brigg & Spun) | MacFarquhar, Roderick | Stewart, Donald (Western l[...]es) |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) |
| English, Michael | MacKenzie, Gregor | Stoddart, David |
| Ennals, David | Mackintosh, John P. | Stott, Roger |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Maclennan, Robert | Strang, Gavin |
| Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Strauss, Rt Hon G. R. |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Madden, Max | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Magee, Bryan | Swain, Thomas |
| Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Maguire, Frank (Fermanagh) | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Fitch, Alan (Wigan) | Mahon, Simon | Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E) |
| Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W) | Mallal[...]eu, J. P. W. | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Flannery, Martin | Marks, Kenneth | Thompson, George |
| Fletcher, L. R. (Ilkeston) | Marquand, David | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Tierney, Sydney |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Tinn, James |
| Ford, Ben | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Tomlinson, John |
| Forrester, John | Maynard, Miss Joan | Tomney, Frank |
| Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) | Meacher, Michael | Torney, Tom |
| Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Tuck, Raphael |
| Freeson, Reginald | Mikardo, Ian | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) |
| George, Bruce | Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) | Walden, Brian (B'ham L'dyw'd) |
| Gilbert, Dr John | Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N) | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
| Golding, John | Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Gould, Bryan | Molloy, William | Ward, Michael |
| Gourlay, Harry | Moonman, Eric | Watkins, David |
| Graham, Ted | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Watt, Hamish |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw) | Weetch, Ken |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Weitzman, David |
| Grocott, Bruce | Moyle, Roland | Wellbeloved, James |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | White, James (Pollok) |
| Harper, Joseph | Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King | Whitlock, William |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Newens, Stanley | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Hart, Rt Hon Judith | Noble, Mike | Williams, Alan (Swansea W) |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Oakes, Gordon | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Hatton, Frank | Ogden, Eric | Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford) |
| Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) | Wise, Mrs Audrey | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton) | Woodall, Alec | |
| Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E) | Woof, Robert | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton) | Wrigglesworth, Ian | Mr. Tom Cox and |
| Wilson, William (Coventry SE) | Mr. Frank R. White | |
| NOES | ||
| Aitken, Jonathan | Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham) | Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald |
| Alison, Michael | Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | Mawby, Ray |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Glyn, Dr Alan | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Arnold, Tom | Godber, Rt Hon Joseph | Mayhew, Patrick |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Goodhart, Philip | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Awdry, Daniel | Goodhew, Victor | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) |
| Baker, Kenneth | Goodlad, Alastair | Mills, Peter |
| Banks, Robert | Gorst, John | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Beith, A. J. | Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) |
| Bell, Ronald | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Moate, Roger |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Molyneaux, James |
| Benyon, W. | Gray, Hamish | Monro, Hector |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Griffiths, Eldon | Montgomery, Fergus |
| Biffen, John | Grist, Ian | Moore, John (Croydon C) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Grylls, Michael | More, Jasper (Ludlow) |
| Blaker, Peter | Hall, Sir John | Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral |
| Body, Richard | Hall-Davis, A. G. F. | Morris, Michael (Northampton S) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Morrison, Hort Peter (Chester) |
| Bottomley, Peter | Hampson, Dr Keith | Mudd, David |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) | Hannam, John | Heave, Airey |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss | Nelson, Anthony |
| Bradford, Rev Robert | Hastings, Stephen | Neubert, Michael |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Havers, Sir Michael | Newton, Tony |
| Brittan, Leon | Hayhoe, Barney | Normanton, Tom |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, C. | Heath, Rt Hon Edward | Nott, John |
| Brotherton, Michael | Heseltine, Michael | Onslow, Cranley |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Hicks, Robert | Oppenheim, Mrs Sally |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Higgins, Terence L. | Osborn, John |
| Buchanan-Smith, Ailck | Hodgson, Robin | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Budgen, Nick | Holland, Philip | Page, Richard (Workington) |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Hopson, Emlyn | Paisley, Rev Ian |
| Burden, F. A. | Hordern, Peter | Pardoe, John |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Parkinson, Cecil |
| Carlisle, Mark | Howell, David (Guildford) | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Carson, John | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) | Penhaligon, David |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Percival, Ian |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Peyton, Rt Hon John |
| Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Hurd, Douglas | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Clark, William (Croydon S) | Hutchison, Michael Clark | Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch |
| Clegg, Walter | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | James, David | Prior, Rt Hon James |
| Cope, John | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wansl'd & W'df'd) | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Cormack, Patrick | Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) | Raison, Timothy |
| Corrie, John | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Rathbone, Tim |
| Costain, A. P. | Jones, Arthur (Daventry) | Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E) | Jopling, Michael | Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) |
| Crouch, David | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Crowder, F. P. | Kershaw, Anthony | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) |
| Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford) | Kilfedder, James | Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex) |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Kimball, Marcus | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | King, Evelyn (South Dorset) | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | King, Tom (Bridgwater) | Ridsdale, Julian |
| Drayson, Burnaby | Kirk, Sir Peter | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Kitson, Sir Timothy | Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey |
| Dunlop, John | Knight, Mrs Jill | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Knox, David | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Lamont, Norman | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Elliott, Sir William | Langford-Holt, Sir John | Ross, William (Londonderry) |
| Emery, Peter | Latham, Michael (Melton) | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Lawrence, Ivan | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) |
| Fairbairn, Nicholas | Lawson, Nigel | Royle, Sir Anthony |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Sainsbury, Tim |
| Fell, Anthony | Lloyd, Ian | St. John-Stevas, Norman |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | Loveridge, John | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | McAdden, Sir Stephen | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | McCrindle, Robert | Shepherd, Colin |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | McCusker, H. | Shersby, Michael |
| Forman, Nigel | Macfarlane, Neil | Silvester, Fred |
| Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd) | MacGregor, John | Sims, Roger |
| Fox, Marcus | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Freud, Clement | Madel, David | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) |
| Fry, Peter | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Speed, Keith |
| Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. | Marten, Neil | Spence, John |
| Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Mates, Michael | Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) |
| Gardner, Edward (S Fyide) | Maude, Angus | Spicer, Michael (S Worcester) |
| Sproat, Iain | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret | Walters, Dennis |
| Stainton, Keith | Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Stanbrook, Ivor | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) | Wells, John |
| Stanley, John | Townsend, Cyril D | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Steel, David (Roxburgh) | Trotter, Neville | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Steen, Anthony (Wavertree) | van Straubenzee, W. R. | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) | Vaughan, Dr Gerard | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Stokes, John | Viggers, Peter | Younger, Hon George |
| Stradling Thomas, J. | Wakeham, John | |
| Tapsell, Peter | Welder, David (Clitheroe) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Taylor, R. (Croydon NW) | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek | Mr. Spencer Le Merchant and |
| Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) | Wall, Patrick | Mr. Carol Mather |
| Tebbit, Norman |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§
Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the establishment of two bodies corporate to be called British Aerospace and British Shipbuilders, it is expedient to authorise—
shall not exceed £250 million;