§ Q2. Mr. Aitkenasked the Prime Minister if he will make an official visit to Croydon.
§ The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan)I have at present no plans to do so.
§ Mr. AitkenWill the Prime Minister make a special visit to the headquarters of the Home Office Immigration Department at Croydon in order to resolve the growing uncertainty and confusion about dependants? In particular, does he realise that, as long as the Government remain unable clearly to define and give an accurate estimate of the number of Commonswealth dependants who are entitled to come here, their immigration policy will remain a chaotic and contentious shambles?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, I do not accept that. It is necessary that there should be a clear understanding of the principles and conditions under which immigrants may come to this country. The rules are pretty clear, although they are somewhat complicated in certain circumstances. I have always taken the view, and I continue to take it, as do the Government as a whole, that the numbers entering are an important element of racial harmony. As for the possible creation of a dependants' register, as the hon. Member will know Lord Franks is looking into the feasibility of the idea as a means of estimating the numbers who have still to come here. I suggest that the hon. Member waits for the result of that report.
§ Mr. BidwellIs my right hon. Friend aware of the pressures that are currently emanating from Tory backwoodsmen like the hon. Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken)? They should not be allowed to lead to needless harassment at our ports of coloured people who are seeking to come here quite legitimately, either under the 1971 immigration rules as passed by the Conservatives or for genuine visits on the occasion of family bereavements, weddings and so on.
§ The Prime MinisterHaving read some of the hon. Member's previous contributions on this matter, I have the 1428 feeling that he was more concerned this afternoon to make a party point than to harass immigrants. The consequences of making this party point, however, may be to raise tension, and the hon. Gentleman should keep that in mind. This is especially so because it is clear that there is a great deal of uncertainty among people who do not know their way around about the rules which are administered at Croydon. It is the job of the House to explain the rules to those who wish to come here and to tell them whether they satisfy the conditions. As regards those already here, having seen the way in which some immigrants apply themselves—especially the Asian business people—I wish that some of our native-born people would do the same.
§ Mr. John MooreIs the Prime Minister aware how distressed I am that he is not able to visit my constituency? If he is able to visit Croydon in future, will he assure the Conservative councillors who run the town's finances so responsibly and who have reduced their budgets in accordance with the Government's request, that they will not be made to suffer because of spendthrift Socialist councils like Camden?
§ The Prime MinisterThat is rather a switch in topic—the same geographical location, but a different subject. As regards the financial aspects of local authorities, I do not think that it is possible to divide them as the hon. Gentleman has done. The Government do not have control over local government current expenditure and it would not be right, certainly during this year, to discriminate between those who have tried to keep within the agreed limits and those who have not.
§ Mr. Cyril SmithIf the Prime Minister visits Croydon, will he inform the Home Office staff there of the view of some hon. Members on this side of the House that a man whose skin is black is as entitled to spend his life with his family as is a man whose skin is white?
§ The Prime MinisterI have found from my experience of Home Office officials before they went to Croydon—and I am sure this is still true—that they acknowledge that principle. It is a principle that I should like to see acknowledged by all Opposition Members.
§ Mrs. ThatcherMay I ask the Prime Minister to reconsider some of his totally unjustified remarks to my hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken)? Does he not recollect that my hon. Friend initiated in a very constructive way a debate on immigration in Private Members' time? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in raising this question my hon. Friend raised the very real worry which most people feel because they are perturbed about the numbers who may be entitled to come here? Does not the Prime Minister recognise that until this is resolved their worries will continue?
§ The Prime MinisterI have no need to reconsider what I said. If anything, I thought I was letting off the hon. Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken) rather lightly. I assumed that his principal object was to attack the Government and not immigrants. I read at lunchtime today the speech made by the hon. Member in the debate to which the right hon. Lady refers. That was why I made the comments I did. His speech was in marked contrast in moderation and nature to the supplementary question that he put today. That is why I am trying to be fair to him.
It is important for us all that there should be well-understood conditions of entry and that the numbers who enter should be limited to those who meet those conditions. [HON. MEMBERS: "How many?"] When they have properly entered, the people concerned should be entitled to live here in the same way as the rest of the community.
§ Mrs. ThatcherWhat is party political about asking the Government to give the facts on the number of dependants entitled to come here?
§ The Prime MinisterThere is nothing party political about that. I am sure that the hon. Member for Thanet, East is well able to look after himself, but no doubt he will be happy to have the maternal protection of the Leader of the Opposition. There is nothing objectionable about answering a question on numbers. [Interruption.] I wish that the hon. Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) would be quiet for a moment. We are not on points of order now. The House knows that the question of a dependants' register is being properly examined by Lord Franks, and I suggest 1430 that we should wait for the results of that examination.
§ Mr. AitkenOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.