§ Mr. Wyn RobertsI beg to move Amendment No. 27, in page 4, line 8, at end insert
'or any other field of activity which the Secretary of State considers is relevant to the discharge of the functions of the Agency'793 In Committee we discussed a variety of possible additions to the areas from which the Secretary of State could draw members of the Agency. These areas included the law, economics, research, international affairs, consumer affairs, agriculture, horticulture and land management. The amendment obviously covers all these areas of activity. In Committee the Minister promised to consider the matter as such provisions are already included in the Scottish Development Agency Bill.The amendment also helps to eliminate the suggestion of exclusivity which still surrounds subsection (3). Although we have been assured by the Minister that that subsection is by no means exclusive and that the Secretary of State's choice of membership is not limited to the categories listed, I believe that this is an amendment that the Government can accept without qualms. The amendment improves the clause as it stands.
§ Sir Raymond GowerIn Committee the Government rejected suggestions that additional professions or occupations should be specified in detail. I recall that the Minister rejected the inclusion of the legal profession and other professions which were named in amendments. The formula in the amendment would appear to overcome the objections which he then expressed and the reasons which he then gave for not adding to the list as set out in the Bill. The amendment provides a neat way of accomplishing what some hon. Members want, to which only certain technical objections were raised. I hope that the Minister can accept the amendment as an absolute solution.
§ Mr. Alec JonesI am sorry to disappoint hon. Gentlemen, but I must resist the amendment. It is true that I promised to look at the matter and I have spent some time doing so. I recall the discussions we had in Committee and the long list of suggested qualifications to be added to Clause 2(3).
It is true that the amendment would cover the areas which we discussed in Committee, but it is also true that the Bill as drafted includes all those areas. The words:
The members of the Agency shall includemean the sort of people discussed on that occasion. The clause is not exclu- 794 sive. The amendment is not necessary. The fact that membership of this House includes Labour Members of Parliament does not exclude Conservative Members. We might wish that it were the opposite, but that is the present position. The fact that the words "shall include" appear in the clause means that the amendment is unnecessary.I understand the point about the Scottish Development Agency Bill, but that Bill is not identical with this. The Scottish Development Agency Bill includes the provision that
The members of the Agency shall be appointed from among".Therefore, it was not necessary to include in this Bill a long list, or words similar to those used in the amendment.I hope that, with this assurance and that indicating that this Bill is not on a par with the Scottish Development Agency Bill, the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts) will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
§ Mr. GristI was interested in what the Minister said in his description of "inclusive" in terms of membership of the House. He was describing a position which exists. He was not saying that the House shall include Conservative, Communist or National Front Members. I do not follow his logic. The words "shall include" seem to mean that these persons have to show these various qualifications. I cannot see how we can get round that. They add up to more members than there are on the Agency, if I remember rightly, unless we have a multiple person who is in a number of these jobs, which is quite possible. I do not think that the Minister has got it right.
§ Mr. Wyn RobertsIn view of the Minister's assurance and explanation, which we accept, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. Nicholas EdwardsI beg to move Amendment No. 28, in page 4, line 19, at end insert:
'(7A) The Agency with the approval of the Secretary of State, shall appoint a Director of Rural Development. The Director of Rural Development shall be a member of the Agency but the Chairman and Deputy Chairman shall not be Director of Rural Development'.
§ Mr. SpeakerWith this it will be convenient to take Amendment No. 31, in Clause 5, page 5, line 15, at end insert:
'(3) The Agency shall establish a Committee for Rural Development. The Director of Rural Development shall be a member of the Committee. The Committee shall have special responsibility for Mid-Wales and for rural Wales'.
§ Mr. EdwardsThis amendment, taken with Amendment No. 31, is important. Indeed, we regard this as one of the more important debates of the evening.
On Second Reading, the Secretary of State said:
The agency's remit covers the whole of Wales, and I regard it as having a responsibility to contribute to developing rural as well as urban Wales. This naturally raises questions about the special needs of Mid-Wales and the concept of a Mid-Wales Development Board. I made it clear throughout this year that we are giving priority in this Session to establishing a Welsh Development Agency with an all-Wales remit. But I have made it equally clear that we are giving the most careful consideration to what else may need to be done in rural Wales in the light of the developing rôle to be given to the Welsh Agency and the responsibilities of existing bodies."—[Official Report, 26th June 1975; Vol. 894, c. 690.]In Committee, during our debate on the problems of Mid-Wales, the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick) spoke of the needto co-ordinate the activities of bodies already existing…I refer to the Mid-Wales Development Association and the New Town Development Corporation. All these bodies need to see their work continued.I do not believe that the Welsh Development Agency, as it is, will be sufficient for this purpose. We shall need a second organisation, be it a separate one or an organisation within the Welsh Development Agency. We certainly need to make special provision".Our amendments attempt to meet that objective within the framework of the Bill and the Agency's general area of activity by proposing the appointment of a Director of Rural Development and a Committee for Rural Development within the Agency. We think that there is a need, but that, if we are to have an Agency, the matter is best dealt with in this way within its structure.We are also anxious to know the Government's intentions. I know that it has become clear during today's proceedings that we cannot always rely on the Western Mail, but we read in that paper on 16th October:
A call for the Government to act quickly with a new initiative for development in rural 796 Wales came yesterday from the executive committee of the Welsh Labour Party. And Mr. Emrys Roberts, chairman of the New Town Development Corporation, said he would like to see the Corporation made an agent for the new Welsh Development Agency and its limit extended to include Brecon and Bala.The Welsh Labour Party's call was for a body to examine the needs of each community in rural Wales and with the power and finance to act to maintain them.But Mr. Roberts said this could best be achieved by retaining the Mid-Wales Development Corporation structure though making it responsible to the new Welsh Development Agency.He spelled out his reasons for proposing that solution.Nothing in our amendments would prevent the Welsh Development Agency from acting as an agent for the WDA. Indeed, we have it on the authority of the Under-Secretary, speaking in Committee on 24th July:
The Agency will be able, by mutual agreement, to use the Mid-Wales Development Corporation as its agent for certain of its functions within the designated area of the new town.We also had his assurance:The Agency will certainly have a rôle to play in Mid-Wales. I confirm that it is our intention that the Agency will work in close co-operation and harmony with other bodies which operate in the area. The rôle of the Agency will be to bring its special powers and skills to the assistance of those organisations such as, for example, the Development Commission or the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association."—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 24th July 1975; c. 364–7.]One might have imagined from that speech by the Under-Secretary that the Government intended to use the Agency as their main instrument and that they saw it as the organisation to co-ordinate the activities of existing bodies operating in this area.7.15 p.m.
I do not think that is the Government's intention. I believe that they have prepared and propose to bring in as a matter of urgency early in the new Session a Bill to establish a new form of development agency for Mid-Wales. I think it likely that the principles of this Bill have been approved at the highest level, and presumably its imminent birth will be announced in the Queen's Speech. Yet, with his too common lack of candour, the Secretary of State has not told us so. Once again, the House is being asked to approve a Bill under a misapprehension on the basis of information, fed to it by the Government 797 during the Committee stage, which obscures the reality. I cannot imagine why they should not come out and tell us what their intentions are.
The Western Mail, in a leading article pointing to the need to sort out the present arrangements, said:
The creation of the Welsh Development Agency provides the supreme opportunity to accomplish this task, but still no decisions have been announced, despite Mr. John Morris's oft-professed concern.Now is the moment for the right hon. and learned Gentleman to make that announcement. We pressed him to do so in July, and I suggest that he can now delay no longer.In these amendments we have one possible solution in mind which uses the very extensive powers already given to the Welsh Development Agency. We seek to institutionalise within the Agency this special rôle and responsibility.
The leading article in the Western Mail of 16th October, continued with the comment:
One solution would be to set up within the WDA a rural division with an identifiable budget of its own and a base in mid-Wales. But Mr. Emrys Roberts, the chairman of the New Town Development Corporation, makes an important and valid point when he says that in rural areas industrial and housing development cannot be divorced and that this should dictate that the corporation become an agent of the WDA.That was exactly the solution which we had in mind when we tabled our amendments at the beginning of October. Nothing that has been said since changes my view that this is a perfectly feasible way of setting about the task. If the Secretary of State has an alternative, I suggest that now is the moment when he might reasonably tell us about if.
§ Mr. Caerwyn E. Roderick (Brecon and Radnor)I wish to intervene in the debate, obviously, as my area has been discussed and since the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards) has kindly made some of my speech for me. However, I should like to finish it off now in the right context.
I am delighted that the Conservative Opposition have had a change of heart on the whole aspect of intervention in rural Wales. We would have had a body acting in this area for many years now—the Rural Development Board—if the 798 then Conservative administration had not done away with the ideas which the previous Labour Government brought to fruition. Now the Opposition are coming along with us. We missed a good opportunity, and we now need to make up for the lost time.
I am not supporting the amendments, for reasons which I will give later. For me they would be a kind of "last ditch" position. They do not represent a position which I want to take up. They would be a poor alternative to the ideal. These amendments will not provide the best means for dealing with the problems of Mid-Wales and rural Wales. My right hon. and learned Friend has oft repeated his promise to provide for Mid-Wales and rural Wales after getting the Welsh Development Agency Bill through and setting up the Agency. I should like to see the establishment of separate organisations to deal with these matters. We need a body to care for the economic and social well-being of Mid-Wales and which can concentrate its efforts solely on doing that. If we proceed within the context of the WDA there is a danger that the major interventions will take place in the urban areas as so many more people will be affected. Unless there is a clearly defined area of activity in rural Wales we shall not see any benefits. We look for the establishment of a body of the nature of the Highlands and Islands Development Board for rural Wales.
We must not confuse Mid-Wales and rural Wales. Rural Wales obviously extends much wider than Mid-Wales. That is why I seek a body along the lines of the Highlands and Islands Development Board to intervene in the many activities in those areas. For instance, Anglesey will need help with tourism, the retention of rural schools, transport and many other aspects.
I should like to see the establishment of a further body in Mid-Wales to look after the economic and industrial aspects. There is now a need for separate boards for rural Wales and Mid-Wales in addition to the WDA to undertake the work now being done by many other bodies. The remit of the WDA would be too narrow for my purposes. I want to see activities carried out which the WDA would not undertake. I urge my right hon. Friend to continue his search for separate provision.
799 I do not support these amendments because I think that they are premature. I wait to see what the Minister will produce to meet the needs of Wales. If he assures me that he is still concentrating on the problem I shall not support the Opposition in pressing these amendments.
§ Sir Raymond GowerThe hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick) is perhaps unwise in waiting for the establishment of a body to deal with the problems of Mid-Wales and rural Wales. It would be far better for him to support the laudable efforts to create, within the work of the Agency, a subsidiary organisation to deal with those problems.
The expression "rural Wales" embraces a large area. It extends beyond the narrow frontiers delineated in terms of the Mid-Wales organisations which have functioned in the past. There are parts of North and South Wales which are distinctively rural.
There will be another valuable effect if the hon. Gentleman accepts the principle of these amendments. Although we understand that the Agency has a remit for the whole of Wales, there is a danger of its main attention being devoted to the problems of the industrial areas, the great conurbations around Cardiff and Swansea, and the counties of Glamorgan, Gwent and East Flint. If we could persuade the Minister to include the amendment there would be a counterbalance within the Agency. The Agency would not be entirely preoccupied with the problems of heavy and medium industry. It would recognise the valid contribution to the Welsh economy of those parts of Wales where there will be no sizeable industrial development in the foreseeable future.
That is a reasonable formula. There would be a director of rural development, whose entire function would be to consider the needs of rural Wales. He would work within the Agency. He would pay special attention to this work and influence the thinking of his colleagues. I do not suggest that those people would pay no attention to the problems of rural Wales, but the presence of this officer as a member of the 800 Agency would strengthen the claims of rural Wales to constant attention. A rural development committee with special responsibility for rural Wales and Mid-Wales would be an organisation within the Agency which would strengthen the attention given to the needs of these parts of Wales.
I hope that the Government are receptive to this idea. Even though they may not agree with the exact wording, they can say whether they accept the principle and revise the wording.
§ Mr. D. E. ThomasThis is an important debate on rural Wales. We have seen the delaying tactics of successive Governments bleeding the rural sections of Wales to a slow death rather than providing sound rural development policies.
In the past 20 years there have been several reports dealing with the problems of rural Wales. The Beacham Report on depopulation in Mid-Wales came out in the early 1960s. A study was commissioned for a new town in Mid-Wales, a proposed town which was described as the "New Caerswsalem". That town did not materialise. The study document indicated the need for substantial economic growth in Mid-Wales.
Further reports have been prepared in the past five years by the Welsh Council. I refer to the report on economic strategy for rural Wales. There is a plethora of bodies active in Mid-Wales. I refer to the local government sponsored bodies, the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association, the central Government sponsored bodies, the Mid-Wales Development Corporation and COSIRA. The latest body concerned with development is the Development Commission, which is answerable to the Department of the Environment.
I take it that the Welsh Office has agreed to all those initiatives. There is a substantial lack of concern in local government in Gwynedd, Dyfed and other districts at the plethora of bodies which are active now. I attended a meeting of the district councils in Gwynedd a fortnight ago. They expressed their concern over the initiative which had come from the Development Commission to expand the area of the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association to include other areas of so-called Mid-Wales. I fail to 801 see how the constituencies of my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Evans) or my hon. Friend the Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley) can be described as forming part of Mid-Wales. That is typical of the confusion of the policies applying to these areas.
My plea is for the Secretary of State to give us a clear indication of his intentions? I read his Newtown speech of last October with great enthusiasm. It is now papering the wall of my office, and I look at it regularly. I hope to see the Secretary of State carrying out the undertakings he gave when he opened the Newtown exhibition. However, I give one warning: it is important that we should not extend the Newtown instrument as it is, as a blunt instrument, into rural Wales. Comprehensive development in rural areas is a very sensitive exercise. That is why many of us, including the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick), have described the Highlands and Islands Development Board as the type of organisation which we should welcome in rural Wales. Despite criticisms about democratic answerability, that board has shown a sensitivity to development in housing and to the concept of community development in rural areas generally. We want to see similar sensitivity from a rural development agency operating in Mid-Wales.
I support the amendment because it provides an interim structure. It provides within the WDA a director of rural development who will be able to act in the interim while we await legislation from the Secretary of State. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will say that that legislation is coming and that there will be action. It is not sufficient for him to remind us that he hails from Mid-Wales and lives there. He must also show that he has policies which will revitalise an area that has been neglected by this place for 80 years.
§ 7.30 p.m.
§ Mr. John MorrisI am the first to agree, in all humility, that this is an important subject. It is one with which I have been familiar all my life. During the debate—an interesting one—I was invited to unfold my views about Mid-Wales in the same way as in an earlier debate I was invited to unfold the Government's intentions on devolution. To 802 do all that would need an omnibus Bill, and we have not yet reached the stage at which I can introduce a Wales (All Purposes) Bill to meet all contingencies. Therefore, I must not be seduced by the invitations to expand about all possible contingencies.
Three views have emerged from the debate. Those who tabled the amendment, in all sincerity, want the provision for its own sake. That I understand. There are those like the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Thomas) who want the proposal as an interim provision. There are those like my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick) who do not want it now but, if nothing better emerged, would adopt it as a fallback position.
From the beginning we have said repeatedly that the concept of the Welsh Development Agency is that it should have an all-Wales rôle. No part of Wales should be denied the opportunity of being able to avail itself of the substantial resources placed at the disposal of the Agency.
I am not answerable for the Western Mail correspondents or for its leader writers. Despite the patronising tone of whoever wrote a recent leader, I yield to none in my concern for Mid-Wales, and I am grateful and flattered to hear that my speech at Newtown papers the wall of the office of the hon. Member for Merioneth. I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of what he says, but I may pay a visit to his office to examine the papering. I hope that no one will dispute the sincerity of my approach.
I remember in 1955—or it may have been earlier—reading the famous report on Mid-Wales which contained these words which I have never forgotten:
Depopulation has been used as a form of economic adjustment in Mid-Wales.I often think of those words. I understand what they mean because of my experience in my own locality and at my school. I know how many people returned to my valley to earn their livelihood there. Therefore, I yield to no one in my awareness of the problem.It should be understood here and now that these fundamentally important powers of the Welsh Development Agency should not be denied to any part of Wales—Mid-Wales in particular—which 803 wants to avail itself of them. My first argument is that the Welsh Development Agency will have a rôle throughout Wales.
The amendment suggests that singled out as part of the organisational structure of the Agency there should be a committee for one purpose and a director for a similar purpose. If, as I hope, the Agency will evolve, why at this juncture should one seek to restrict it? Why, in a detailed Bill which has been canvassed, discussed and argued uphill and downhill, should we be unduly restrictive and seek to spell out in terms the internal structure of this body which I hope will be with us for a long time and evolve to meet the host of problems that inevitably will arise throughout the whole of Wales?
If there were to be a director for one part of Wales, why should not there be a director for other parts of Wales? Why should there not be a director for Southwest Wales, where problems will arise from what may be found in the Celtic Sea? Why has the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards) concentrated on Mid-Wales and rural Wales? I am not sure what is the difference between them, but I imagine that rural Wales includes Mid-Wales. One cannot single out a concept for Mid-Wales to be followed by one for rural Wales as if the areas were distinct one from the other.
I am anxious to ensure that the best possible machinery is available for Mid-Wales. I am aware of the number of bodies that operate there now. The Welsh Office provides money for the Development Commission, which operates at my behest. The chairman comes to see me, I give him what advice and guidance I can and I have to approve whatever steps are taken. A great deal of welcome initiative comes from the Development Commission under its exceedingly energetic chairman, a former colleague of ours. At the end of the day I pick up the bill and seek to ensure that the ongoing machinery in Mid-Wales and rural Wales is used as effectively as possible.
In the position that faced me last year I could not allow one moment of time to be lost before introducing the Welsh 804 Development Authority. I wanted to ensure that the machinery we had in Mid-Wales at that time was used to the full. I welcome very much the success of the New Town Corporation and the energetic steps which have been taken by the Development Commission with money provided by the Welsh Office.
I advise the House to resist the amendment on the basis that the Agency will have an all-Wales rôle, that the amendment would be unduly restrictive, that it is selective and seeks to crib, cabin and confine the internal organisation of the Agency. I shall continue to give careful consideration to whatever else may need to be done for rural Wales in the light of the rôle of the WDA and existing bodies.
§ Mr. Nicholas EdwardsThe hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick) said that we had had a change of heart, but it was the powers of compulsory acquisition that were written into the previous proposal that caused so much dislike. The powers of the Agency in this respect are less extreme. In any case, the Agency is given powers that it can operate in Mid-Wales and rural Wales. We are now seeking to produce the organisation that is required.
I noted that though the right hon. and learned Gentleman would not give us any information about his plans, he did not in any way seek to deny what I have had to say about his proposed legislative programme. I do not think that he can talk about the Agency having an all-Wales rôle while he is preparing legislation to give the responsibility to some other kind of body.
Equally, it is inadequate to come before the House and to talk about having an awareness of the problem and to claim that he has been giving careful thought to it. No doubt he has had an awareness of the problem for a long time and has been giving careful thought to it for a long time, but as he has given us no form of declaration of policy and as he has had nothing to say about his future intentions, I must ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to support the amendment in the Lobby.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
| Division No. 358.] | AYES | [7.40 p.m. |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Henderson, Douglas | Osborn, John |
| Biffen, John | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) | Pardoe, John |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Hutchison, Michael Clerk | Rathbone, Tim |
| Chalker, Mrs Lynda | James, David | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Costain, A. P. | Kitson, Sir Timothy | Silvester, Fred |
| Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Knox, David | Sims, Roger |
| Durant, Tony | Lane, David | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke) | Lawrence, Ivan | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Luce, Richard | Viggers, Peter |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | MacCormick, Iain | Watt, Hamish |
| Goodhew, Victor | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Montgomery, Fergus | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Moore, John (Croydon C) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES |
| Grist, Ian | Morgan, Geraint | Mr. Anthony Berry and |
| Hall, Sir John | Neave, Airey | Mr. Adam Butler. |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Neubert, Michael |
| NOES | ||
| Abse, Leo | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Pendry, Tom |
| Anderson, Donald | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Perry, Ernest |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Hunter, Adam | Radice, Giles |
| Atkinson, Norman | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Roderick, Caerwyn |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | John, Brynmor | Rodgers, George (Chorley) |
| Bates, Alf | Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) |
| Carmichael, Nell | Kinnock, Nell | Sandelson, Neville |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Lamond, James | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) |
| Cocks, Michael (Bristol S) | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Coleman, Donald | Loyden, Eddie | Small, William |
| Dalyell, Tam | McElhone, Frank | Spearing, Nigel |
| Deakins, Eric | Mackenzie, Gregor | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Dormand, J. D. | Mackintosh, John P. | Stallard, A. W. |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | Madden, Max | Strang, Gavin |
| Eadie, Alex | Marks, Kenneth | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Edge, Geoff | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Millan, Bruce | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | Moonman, Eric | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Ward, Michael |
| Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Newens, Stanley | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Flannery, Martin | Noble, Mike | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| George, Bruce | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Padley, Walter | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Grant, John (Islington C) | Peart, Rt Hon Fred | Mr. David Stoddart and |
| Harrison, Walter (Wakefield) | Mr. Joseph Harper. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§
Amendment proposed: No. 29, in page 4, line 28, at end insert:
'(11) For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that nothing in this Act shall be construed as an impediment to the transfer of responsibility from the Agency to a Welsh
§ The House divided: Ayes 53, Noes 76.
§ National Assembly when such a body has been established; and such a transfer may be undertaken by order'.—[Mr. D. E. Thomas.]
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 7, Noes 75.
| John, Brynmor | Moonman, Eric | Spearing, Nigel |
| Jones, Alec (Rhondda) | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Newens, Stanley | Stallard, A. W. |
| Kinnock, Neil | Noble, Mike | Stoddart, David |
| Lamond, James | Padley, Walter | Strang, Gavin |
| Latham, Arthur (Paddington) | Peart, Rt Hon Fred | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Loyden, Eddie | Perry, Ernest | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| McCartney, Hugh | Radice, Giles | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) |
| McElhone, Frank | Roderick, Caerwyn | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Mackenzie, Gregor | Rodgers, George (Chorley) | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Mackintosh, John P. | Rooker, J. W. | Ward, Michael |
| Madden, Max | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Marks, Kenneth | Sandelson, Neville | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES |
| Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Skinner, Dennis | Mr. J. D. Dormand and |
| Millan, Bruce | Small, William | Mr. Tom Pendry. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.