§ Lords Amendment: No. 15, in page 4, line 3, leave out from beginning to "nothing" in line 5.
§ Mr. KaufmanI beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.
§ Mr. KaufmanThese are straightforward tidying-up amendments tabled by the Government in another place.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Lords Amendment: No. 16, in page 4, line 30, at end insert "and incidental to".
§ Mr. KaufmanI beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.
This is a purely technical drafting amendment.
§ Question put and agreed to.
616§ Subsequent Lords amendment agreed to.
§ Lords Amendment: No. 18, after Clause 3, insert the following new Clause "A"—
§ Overseas aid
§ ". The Board may, with the consent of the Secretary of State, enter into and carry out agreements with the Minister of Overseas Development under which the Board act, at the expense of that Minister, as the instrument by means of which technical assistance is furnished by the Minister in exercise of the power conferred by section 1(1) of the Overseas Aid Act 1966; and the Board may, with the consent of both the Secretary of State and the said Minister, enter into and carry out agreements under which the Board, for any purpose specified in the said section 1(1), furnish technical assistance in a country or territory outside the United Kingdom against reimbursement to them of the cost of furnishing that assistance."
Mr. Deputy SpeakerI call the attention of the House to the fact that privilege is involved in this amendment.
§ Mr. KaufmanI beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.
The purpose of this amendment, which was tabled by the Government in another place, is to ensure that the NEB has the power to make the skills and experience which it will develop available to Governments and other authorities and bodies in developing countries if invited to do so.
§ Mrs. HartI am sure you will tell me if I commit some error, Mr. Deputy 617 Speaker, in view of your explanation that privilege is involved in this amendment. I am not quite sure in what way privilege is involved.
Events carry on after one's own departure, and at the Ministry of Overseas Development I was greatly involved in the inclusion of this amendment in the Bill. I would like to explain its importance and relevance. Many developing countries have arrived at the view that it is necessary for them to control and own their natural resources, and this is very much involved in the new international economic order between industrialised and Third World countries which is being discussed so much now. I have been greatly impressed, over the past 18 months, with the technical co-operation between the public sectors of developing and developed countries.
I should also like to see investment co-operation, but this is not incorporated in the amendment. Every basic area of concern to developing nations, whether in energy or transport, matches up to the areas of concern in industrialised nations' public sectors. Developing countries which may, for understandable reasons, be reluctant to engage in the involvement of further private investment in their countries, have no theological or ideological problems in terms of the involvement of public sectors of industrialised countries. [Interruption.] I hope that I shall not be challenged on this issue. If I am challenged, I shall reply.
Many of the acts of incorporation of the existing nationalised industries, which were enacted between 1945 and 1950, do not provide the powers for a public sector industry in Britain to engage in overseas activities. The British Steel Corporation may do so. That is an exceptional case. Most of the others are specifically prohibited from doing so by Acts of incorporation. I should like to see—I hope that we shall see it before too long—an amendment to all the nationalised industries' legislation giving all nationalised industries the power to do that.
It is important that in creating the new body—the National Enterprise Board—we should not continue the effective prohibition against its engaging in operations which can be of direct technical assistance to the developing countries, through 618 technical assistance financed by the Ministry of Overseas Development from the aid budget. Therefore, I welcome the amendment, which removes the possibility of the NEB, in any of its activities, being precluded from providing the technical know-how, the co-operation and the assistance which is proper and relevant within the overseas aid programme.
This is a necessary amendment. I trust that the House will support it.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Lady raised the question of privilege. This matter involves a charge. It is not covered by a Money Resolution. Therefore, it is an invasion of the House of Commons privileges. However, if the House passes the amendment it means that we are waiving our privileges. The reason why attention is drawn to this matter is the defence of the privileges of the House, as their Lordships' amendment cannot be accepted unless we agree to waive our privileges.
§ Mr. Tom KingThe Opposition have no wish to obstruct this clause. In Committee we established that the NEB is a person in the legal sense. It is not a company. I am not clear in what way the NEB will be of assistance to the Ministry of Overseas Development, although I can see how the companies owned by the NEB may render assistance. I realise that if a request is received, one of the companies may give technical assistance. However, I am not aware that in this sense the NEB will have any central technical staff, or technical advisory staff, although such staff may be employed by the companies. I am not aware of any prohibition on companies co-operating with the Ministry if requested to help with a technical development, although such companies may be owned by the NEB.
I find difficulty in understanding why the clause is necessary.
§ Mr. KaufmanMay I say how much everybody will have welcomed hearing my right hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart), not only because of her distinguished services as Minister for Overseas Development but also because of the crucial part she played in formulating the policy which led to this Bill. It was therefore appropriate that we should have the benefit of hearing from her on this matter. 619 The clause is meant to cover two situations. The first is where the National Enterprise Board and the Minister for Overseas Development enter into an agreement for technical assistance to be provided as part of the British official overseas aid programme, in which case the consent of the Secretary of State is required before the agreement is concluded. The cost would then be met out of the overall amount available for the programme.
The second provision allows a direct agreement between the NEB and the Government of the developing country or with some other appropriate body, 620 including an international organisation, which would not form part of the official aid programme but for which the NEB would be reimbursed directly by the Government or organisation assisted.
In these cases the consent of both the Secretary of State and the Minister for Overseas Development would be required. I hope that this explains why the clause is necessary.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Mr. SpeakerBy agreeing to the amendment, the House has shown its willingness to waive its privilege. I shall see that an entry is made in the Journal to that effect.