THE SCOTTISH DEVELOPMENT AGENCY

HC Deb 21 October 1975 vol 898 cc356-72

Mr. Crawford

I beg to move Amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 6, after second 'the', insert 'democratic'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this we shall take Amendment No. 2, in page 1, line 9, after second 'Agency', insert: 'answerable to the Scottish Assembly, immediately upon establishment of that Assembly', and Amendment No. 8, in Clause 4, page 4, line 41, at end add: '(4) This report shall be laid before the Scottish Assembly upon the establishment of that Assembly'.

9.15 p.m.

Mr. Crawford

A similar amendment was defeated in Committee by the combined forces of the Conservative and Labour Parties. That usually happens in Committee when Scotland's interests are at stake. I am sure that those who voted against this proposal in Committee did so sincerely, genuinely believing that the Scottish Assembly should not have economic powers or control over the Scottish Development Agency.

My position and that of my party was that the Scottish Assembly should have considerable economic and industrial powers and that without the powers of the Scottish Development Agency the Assembly would be a eunuch and the Scottish Development Agency would not have a proper Scottish master accountable to the people of Scotland. However, perhaps there has been a change of air in the political atmosphere in Scotland since the Committee convened.

Pronouncements from both the Labour Party and the Conservative Party since the Committee stage of the Bill suggest that there has been a change of view. I believe that there are splits in both the Labour and the Conservative Parties. However, there appears to be a change of view to the effect that the Scottish Assembly should have economic and industrial powers.

Mr. Dempsey

Some.

Mr. Crawford

I may be wrong, but I understood that several Conservative Members thought that it should have more than some economic and industrial powers. If it is to have those powers, ipso facto it must have control of the Scottish Development Agency. That must follow as night follows day.

I am delighted that the Scottish National Party is being supported in public statements on this subject by people like the hon. Members for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars), Central Ayrshire (Mr. Lambie), and Paisley (Mr. Robertson). Like the rest of my hon. Friends, I look forward to their support in the Lobby tonight if the Government do not accept the amendment. I state categorically that it will be hypocritical humbug if they vote against the amendment today and then say at a future date that they wish to devolve economic and industrial powers to the Assembly. They cannot have it both ways.

The Scottish National Party is giving the Government and the Conservatives a second chance. They have thrown the idea out once. We are giving them a second chance to make the Scottish Development Agency answerable to the Scottish Assembly when it is set up. It is no use their saying that this is hypothetical. The wording of the amendment is fairly straightforward: immediately upon establishment of that Assembly". It would appear that both Labour and Conservative Members are having a change of heart. I look forward to an earnest expression of their intentions by their support for the amendment.

Mr. Robert Hughes

This is not the place to develop an argument about the Scottish Assembly, until it is established what its powers will be. We are all awaiting with keen anticipation the publication of the White Paper which the Government have promised early next Session. I also await with great anticipation and enthusiasm the publication of the Bill which will follow that. It would be a great mistake if, today, we tried to go over arguments which have been put forward for some time and which we shall have to deal with again when we have seen the White Paper and the Bill.

I am concerned that the Scottish Development Agency gets off the ground and is allowed to do its job without worrying about its future when the Scottish Assembly comes into being. We are concerned that it does its job and that it can operate from the beginning under firm limits from the Secretary of State for Scotland. I draw an analogy with what is now happening in local government. Local government reform in Scotland is under unceasing and quite ruthless attack. I have never hidden my feelings about the set-up of the regions and districts. If anyone cares to look at the records he will find that I have been fairly consistent about this matter.

I believe that some of the attacks made on local government in Scotland are quite scandalous. Local government has not been given an opportunity to begin to tackle its job, or even to begin to work. Nothing can be worse for the morale of people in local government than the way they are being used by people who are not concerned about local government but are prepared to fasten on every indiscretion, error and, indeed, everything which they can pick on, and say that all the difficulties in local government in Scotland are due to local government reforms passed in this House. That is not honest politics. Members of the Scottish National Party should not abuse their position in Parliament and attack people in local government who have no right of reply.

Mrs. Bain

I am one of those in the SNP who have attacked local government work in Scotland. Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting in some way that I am not concerned about the homeless in my constituency and about the fact that we cannot attract teachers to our area, specifically because of regional policies?

Mr. Hughes

I do not deny the hon. Lady's sincerity about the homeless and education, but I deny the allegations that this is due to local government reform and that the reason why these things cannot be cured quickly is that local government reform was approved by this Parliament. I do not like the set-up. However, I use the analogy between the Agency and the Assembly because I know many people in local government—elected members and officials—who are sickened by the fact that although they have been given a mammoth task, before they have even begun to tackle the problems and see their way through to overcoming the difficulties of reorganisation they have come under constant attack, not for the reasons advanced by the hon. Lady but because attack on local government reform is being used as a vehicle for political advantage.

It is no use the hon. Lady's shaking her head. If she is honest with herself, she knows that what I am saying is true. The attitude which was adopted when the Bill started its passage through the House—"Never mind what happens in the future. We must determine here and now what the terms of the Assembly will be and how it should operate in relation to the Agency"—means that the Agency could well come under attack from the moment it begins to operate. It will not be given a chance, because people will say that it must be under democratic control.

I, too, would like to see the Agency under democratic control, but the issue is how to ensure that it begins its mammoth task without delay. With the best will in the world, it will be anything from a year to two years before the Assembly comes into being. I hope that the Agency will be far-seeing, adventurous, and prepared to take risks, not always looking over its shoulder because it is worrying about criticism.

I was not in the House when the Highlands and Islands Development Board legislation was passed, but I recollect, from reading reports in the Press, that before it came into being attacks were made on the Board by members of the Conservative Front Bench and of the Scottish Tory Party. There were dreadful scare stories about what the Board would do.

I believe that the HIDB has done a tremendous job. No one would argue that it is perfect. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) complained earlier about applications from his constituency which were made at the beginning of the year but were not approved until the autumn. If the Board has been less than adventurous in some areas, I believe that that is because, from the beginning, it has been looking over its shoulder, because there have been people prepared to attack it and pinpoint everything which might happen and say "The Board is wrong to do this. It has made a mistake."

There is no magic elixir which will solve, overnight, the problems which afflict Scottish industry. Solving them will be a long job. There will need to be a determination on the part of everyone to back the Agency from the beginning, to stick with it through its successes and, more importantly, in any errors it makes. To suggest from the beginning that it must come under the Assembly can only inhibit it in its future activities.

For that reason, I think that amendments which seek to lay down guidelines or outlines for the operation of the Assembly are wrong, misplaced and misguided. I hope that hon. Members opposite—primarily members of the Scottish National Party—will not use this as a springboard for their own policies, which would be ruinous and disastrous for the people of Scotland.

Mrs. Bain

I cannot hope to remain in order and answer all the political points raised by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) in his speech. I would only ask him to read Amendment No. 2 carefully. It says that the Agency should be answerable to the Scottish Assembly when the Assembly has been established. We are asking not for a delay in the operations of the Agency but merely that when the Assembly is set up the Agency should be answerable to it.

The Scottish National Party welcomed the establishment of the Agency. We expressed some criticisms, as is our democratic right, but, unlike the Conservative Party, we were not prepared to block this legislation, because we recognised the great social and economic problems facing our country and that the Agency presents a unique opportunity for us to solve them. It will not solve every problem overnight—I think the Government recognise that—but it gives us an opportunity which is very important if we are to give our people the kind of standard of living and decent employment opportunities which many of us in this House seek for them.

If the Assembly is to be meaningful, it must have a decisive role to play in Scottish life and the right to control various matters which affect our people in employment, education, industrial development and other sectors. There are vast social implications in the establishment of an Assembly for the Scottish people.

We do not want the Agency to be yet another regional body. I ask the Government and Labour Members to bear in mind what the Scottish Council Research Institute said about regional policies. The best description it could find was that they had been a distinct failure. We do not want the Agency to be part of a regional policy which will merely paper over the cracks in the Scottish economy and way of life. We want a body with real powers to tackle the problems which face us.

I want to deal particularly with the Agency's work in the development and improvement of the environment. I come from the West of Scotland. The vast majority of my constituents came originally from Glasgow and have moved out to seek a new life in overspill communities. The problems facing us in the West of Scotland cannot be solved by a single region. They are Scottish national problems. The strategic economic planning powers given to the Strathclyde Region cannot possibly meet the vast deprivation and lack of advantages in the West of Scotland. The Agency has to be given these power of environmental improvement if we are to remove urban deprivation. At the moment, 97.5 per cent. of the worst areas in the United Kingdom are in the Strathclyde Region. This is a national problem, and the Assembly, through the Agency, must have responsibility for it.

I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North wishes to intervene or whether he is just uncomfortable in his seat.

9.30 p.m.

Mr. Robert Hughes

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I was waiting for a "natural break". The hon. Lady is right as far as she goes in her argument. The problems of West Scotland cannot be solved by regional government, but they could be solved in a much more meaningful way by regional planning on the basis of the Strathclyde Region rather than Glasgow alone. We might then have better relationships with Glasgow on the overspill problem than existed in the past.

The Agency, however, has the opportunity to work as a national body. One of my fears is that it will be so concerned about the West of Scotland that it will not have time to look at the other parts. It is not necessary for the SDA to pass immediately on vesting day into the control of the Scottish Assembly for it to be a success or a failure, and the hon. Lady is making a cardinal error in her assumption on that score. She is saying that unless it is passed over immediately the Assembly is established it will not work, and that is a mistake.

Mrs. Bain

The hon. Member should recognise that on questions of strategic economic planning those who are given the powers must be directly answerable to the people through an elected body, which is what we shall have in the Assembly. We must be democratically answerable. I accept that people fear that the West of Scotland will dominate the Assembly, but we have a great programme ahead of us to educate the people of Scotland into realising that the problems of any particular area, whether it is the Highlands or the West of Scotland, are national problems.

The hon. Member was referring to strategic economic planning powers, but he must be aware that Strathclyde was having to pay, at 1973 prices, £23 million every year to service the housing debt of the city of Glasgow. How can any local authority hope to build new houses when it has to pay out so much in interest?

Mr. Hughes

This is an interesting argument, but I fear that we have been diverted away from discussion of the SDA. My party has argued for years that it was quite wrong for money to be raised on the private market at private market interest rates in order to pay for house-building. My Government have done a great deal through the Public Works Loan Board to reduce that rate of interest, and I am delighted if the SNP is now saying that it is opposed to private entrepreneurs making money out of council housing through loans.

Mrs. Bain

We want housing to become a national rather than a local responsibility. That is the only way in which the problem will be solved. Conservative Members may laugh at the idea of a Scottish nation ignoring the problems of any one particular area, but they do themselves and the people of Scotland a great disservice because the Scottish people are concerned about these problems wherever they exist. Hon. Members from the three major parties who claim to have some kind of social conscience about what is happening in Scotland and who believe in having a meaningful and powerful Assembly for Scotland should go into the Lobby with the SNP tonight to ensure that the Assembly takes the Agency under its remit so that it too may become a meaningful body.

Mr. Grimond

The House is in some difficulty—a difficulty has arisen constantly in this Parliament because the Government have introduced too much legislation, and in the wrong order. Of course we should never have reformed local government in Scotland before setting up the Assembly. We know why that happened. Neither the Conservative Party nor the Labour Party before it believed that an Assembly was possible or desirable. We are now discussing one of the most crucial and central issues affecting the Assembly. I do not see how we can avoid discussing the relationship of the Agency to the Assembly.

One of the faults of planning since the war has been that, admirable though the intentions have been in respect of help for the areas of special need, the plans to give that help have not involved the people of those areas in their own fate. The measures of assistance have been regarded as being handed down from London, and, as a result they have often been out of touch with the ways of different areas of Scotland and have not pulled out the response they might have done. I have a great deal of sympathy with what has been said about the appalling environment with which various parts of Scotland have been left, partly, though not entirely, as a result of that policy.

If we want the Agency to get off the ground satisfactorily and to have a wholehearted response from the people of Scotland, it must be seen to be the Agency of those people. It must not be seen to be something which is dominated from Whitehall, let along Westminster—something which is largely out of the control of the local people.

If the Assembly should be set up without power over this type of operation in Scotland, I believe that it will be doomed to failure, because there will be a hostile and undesirable reaction in Scotland. We are faced with this matter on Report. We must indicate clearly to whom the Agency is responsible. We must face the question whether the Scottish Assembly is to have some power over industrial and planning policy in Scotland. We cannot just leave the matter and say that it will all be reviewed and amended when the Assembly begins to operate. We see what has happened in local government, which is now in some confusion because of the possibility of everything being amended. In my view, one level of Scottish local government should be cut out. That would not affect my constituency, because we have general-purpose local councils, but it would be desirable to do it on the mainland.

It is very difficult to set up the Agency without knowing to whom it is ultimately responsible—simply saying that we shall introduce amending Bills in the Assembly in two years' time, if all goes well. That will not get the Agency off on a good footing.

All that our amendment suggests is that the report of the Agency should be laid before the Assembly. The amendment would make it clear that the Assembly has the right to discuss and amend. That is the minimum. I would go much further. Industrial policy is one of the matters which, if devolution is worth doing at all, must be at least largely devolved. I do not say the same about the overall planning of the United Kingdom, but a Scottish Assembly without some control over investment planning, the siting of industry, the development of certain depressed areas, attention to conditions on the housing estates of the Clyde, and so on, would be hardly worth setting up.

Therefore, we should include in the Bill at least an indication that when the Assembly is set up it will have a role to play in regard to the Agency. I hope that the Government will say that they will examine the question very closely. If they cannot accept the amendment tonight, I hope that they will review the matter and possibly find other ways of dealing with a central question which cannot be put off indefinitely.

Mr. Sillars

I do not think that I or any other hon. Member is any less committed to the Scottish people than is the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain). It is a mistake for members of the Scottish National Party to believe that they are the only ones who are horrified by deprivation and other faults in the Scottish economic and social scene, and who are motivated to demand action.

The fact that I shall not vote with the hon. Lady tonight should not be taken as a sign of any retreat by me from the belief that the Agency should reside under the control of the Scottish Assembly. Where I am in conflict with the Scottish National Party, at any rate on Amendment No. 2, is over the words immediately upon establishment of that Assembly". This is not a question of semantics; there is a sound argument for not taking a decision of this magnitude this evening, after such a short debate. We should argue the question of the Assembly's responsibility to the SDA within the context of the Government's comprehensive proposals over the powers of a Scottish Assembly.

I am told in the Press that a Cabinet meeting is to be held on Friday I sometimes wish that I were a member of the Press rather than a Member of Parliament, because they seem to know about these matters when we do not. The Press is always more knowledgeable about Cabinet meetings, attendance at them, the the publication of White Papers, and other matters, than we are. We are told that at the Cabinet meeting on Friday the major decision will be taken on a package deal for the Scottish and Welsh Assemblies. Therefore, we should examine the issue against the background of what the Government will say.

I should like to see the amendment withdrawn, rather than that it should go to a Division. I am concerned about the use of the word "immediately". Of course, we are concerned with the way in which the Scottish Assembly is set up and with the expertise of those who are to run the departments following legislative, executive and economic devolution. Perhaps the Assembly will require a settling-in period, because we must remember that we shall be establishing a Scottish Parliament for the first time for 270 years. I foresee the possibility of the Scottish Assembly's being transferred, if not on vesting day, within a year or two. That would be a much more sensible way to transfer functions from Westminster to Edinburgh. That would be a much better course than merely dancing round the totem pole with the cry that all power must go to the Assembly on vesting date, whether or not it is fit to handle matters from then on.

My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) made a valid point about the importance of the Agency's impact on the Scottish economy. It may be better for the Agency to run for its first year, post-Assembly, under the control of the Secretary of State for Scotland and thereafter for it to be transferred to the Scottish Assembly, so that the Assembly can debate policy and other matters. I wish to emphasise my worries about the word "immediately" because we should not give powers on an ad hoc basis.

When the House considers the Bill on the Scottish Assembly, I shall not be found wanting in my views about where the Agency should go. I think that it should go to the Scottish Assembly, but it is not sensible for us at present to proceed in the way suggested by Amendment No. 2.

9.45 p.m.

Mr. Robertson

I wish to reinforce the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars). Amendment No. 2 appears to be a politically naive and even dangerous proposal. It involves the House in discussing the powers of a future Scottish Assembly rather than the position of the Scottish Development Agency vis-à-vis the Assembly. In other words, an irresponsible note appears to have crept into the debate.

The Opposition appear to be looking for a nail on which to hang their coat, but their arguments show that they do not have the matter properly in perspective. We want to discuss the powers of the Scottish Assembly at the time when that legislation appears rather than discuss such basic matters in a debate on the Agency. To start talking about relationships with a non-existent and hypothetical body at this time—[Interruption.] I was asking my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey) what this hypothetical thing was, and he thought it was a horse running in the 3 o'clock race tomorrow. I am confused about the thinking of the Scottish National Party on this matter, as I am on so many other things.

The Scottish National Party has its priorities wrong. As a keen devolutionist, I am worried that it will queer the pitch. There are many enemies and opponents of devolution. The Scottish National Party is not helping the argument for the setting up of a Scottish Assembly. It is hindering it. However, its political naïvety has to be seen to be believed. It has no grasp of the reality of the situation.

It is utterly ridiculous to discuss the powers of an Assembly or a Parliament in terms of a Scottish Development Agency. The Scottish National Party should take a look at itself to see whether it has a serious contribution to make to the problem which the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain) described. Although the hon. Lady may come from Glasgow, she must not imagine that she is the only person who has ever been moved to dedicate herself to a solution. If she is saying to those on the Opposition Front Bench—these sudden converts to Marxism—that the solution for Scotland is a Socialist one, I shall go a long way with her, but I do not believe that she means it. All this is simply airy-fairy vote and headline catching. It has no serious intention or purpose.

I am offended at having to listen to the contribution that the Scottish National Party Members have made. It is childish and naive. No serious thought has been given to it. This is a serious place and we are discussing serious issues. Scottish National Members should consider making a serious contribution.

Mr. George Reid (Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire)

I was astonished to hear the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars), of all people, preaching the inevitability of gradualism. I was even more surprised to hear the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Robertson) talking about "hypothetical" bodies. The hon. Member for South Ayrshire has gone on record as saying "While difficulties over trade and industry powers for the Scottish Assembly might exist, the minimum requirement would be Assembly control over the Scottish Development Agency." His hon. Friend the Member for Paisley has said that it is "essential" that the Scottish Assembly has control over the Scottish Development Agency. Both of them have retreated.

I hope I shall not be ruled too wide of the mark if I say that the amendment before the House is as much about devolution and the forms of economic government we shall have in Scotland as it is about the Scottish Development Agency. In that sense it is a fundamental amendment. It deals with the general management of the economy of Scotland. It is also, at this rather late stage, a probing amendment. The people of Scotland will be interested to know who goes into what Lobby, because I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford) will press his amendment to its logical conclusion. They will be interested because tonight they have the first chance to identify those hon. Members who would deny Scotland self-government in her internal economic affairs.

If the Scottish Assembly is not responsible for the Scottish Development Agency, it will be neutered and emasculated right from the start. Hence the reason for immediacy. If the Scottish Assembly is not given control over the Scottish Development Agency right from the start, we shall have to face up to an alternative course, namely, that the Assembly will seek those powers for itself. We shall thereby have constitutional wrangling between London and Edinburgh from which we could well be spared by a positive resolution of the House tonight.

Mr. Robert Hughes

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will reflect on what he has said, because it seems to me to be a recipe for disaster. He says that unless the Assembly, which I should love to debate at length in future as I have done in the past, gets everything that the SNP Members want from the day that it begins to operate, they will damn it and destroy it and say that it is hopeless. They are intent on giving it no opportunity to work. The real enemies of devolution in Scotland are the members of the Scottish National Party, those separatists who do not want the Assembly to work. If they are suggesting that from the day the Assembly comes into being it should take over the SDA function and policy without a break, they are living in cloud-cuckoo-land, and the sooner they realise that the better.

Mr. Reid

It would seem that the hon. Gentleman wants to separate the Agency from the people of Scotland. He forgets that 348,000 members of his party wanted the Agency to be controlled by the Assembly as against 350,000 people who wanted it to be the other way round. He forgets that the Transport and General Workers' Union, the National Union of Mineworkers and the Association of Professional, Executive, Clerical and Computer Staff believe that the Agency should be an Assembly function. He forgets that it is the published view of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Stirling, Falkirk and Grangemouth (Mr. Ewing), who said in an authorised interview: Anything which is held by the Secretary of State is more easily transferred to the Assembly than if it were held by a Secretary of State for any other Department". Why not in this case?

Fundamental questions will therefore be asked by the people of Scotland. The Agency will be responsible for furthering economic development in Scotland. Is it not right that the Assembly should have responsibility for that? The Agency will be responsible for the maintenance of employment in Scotland. The improvement of the environment will be an Agency responsibility. Should that not go to the Assembly? Will the Scottish people not believe that the "games are bogy" unless the Assembly has power over the matters referred to in my hon. Friend's amendment

It will be claimed that this is a premature amendment because we are awaiting the White Paper. But if we were to wait for the Government, we should wait for ever. We have waited for their decision on home rule for a remarkably long time. We now await the White Paper. After the White Paper is ultimately published, we may well wait a very long time before the Bill is published. My hon. Friends have suggested, given the constitutional and economic change through which Scotland is going, that the Government should hold back on their published plans for the regions of Scotland. They did not; they went ahead. As the New Statesman suggests this week, there is a terrible and terrifying muddle for Scottish local government as a result.

I suspect that a large degree of Government thinking is devoted to putting the Agency in a straitjacket, tying it up neatly, delivering it to the Secretary of State and setting it to one side before the White Paper is published. The Scottish people will not accept that.

Mr. Teddy Taylor

Before the hon. Gentleman sits down, I hope he will explain what he meant by saying that if Parliament does not give the Assembly the power and responsibility for managing the Agency, the Assembly will take the power itself. Is he saying that the SNP envisages that the Assembly will not act as a constitutional democracy and, indeed, may be a revolutionary body?

Mr. Reid

The Scottish National Party is a gradualist party. Devolved Governments in Canada, Australia, the United States and India gained those functions which this Government is tonight attempting to deny to the Scottish Assembly. A Scottish Assembly, even with a Labour or Conservative majority, will, as a result of the economic circumstances of Scotland today, inevitably want more power as the Scottish people increasingly identify themselves with the Assembly. This week, for instance, the Young Conservatives expressed sympathy with that view.

There is the view that the Scottish Development Agency amendment, proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire is irrelevant. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith) has said that there will be no powers to give to the Assembly as there will be no Assembly. It is certainly not premature to raise this issue now, as that opinion is shared by a number of back benchers representing English constituencies.

If the management of the Scottish economy is not properly tied to the Scottish Assembly there will be clutter and confusion, and a total division of its economic powers.

In terms of devolution, hon. Members have regularly witnessed government by leak. We have read time and time again, in reports of authorised interviews, what the Government will do in terms of the White Paper. I suggest that in a few weeks' time, with its publication, we shall see an Assembly in Edinburgh having minor economic powers. It will exercise consultative power over the SDA, while the Secretary of State for Scotland will keep most powers. The Secretary of State for Industry will exercise responsibility from London, and the NEB will assume new responsibilities. That is a recipe for constitutional conflict. Inevitably, the Scottish Assembly will seek a wide diversity of powers and there will be demands by the Assembly for power over industry.

Mr. Robert Hughes

Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that the problems of the Scottish economy can be solved entirely north of the border, without any reference to the United Kingdom economy?

Mr. Reid

Yes. Taking my gradualist view, there will be demands from the Scottish Assembly that the Scottish economy be placed under one central authority, situated either in London or in Edinburgh. My own view is that the powers given to the Assembly will increasingly come in strengthened form to Edinburgh.

We are dealing with a period of transition in Scottish constitutional and economic life. It is most important to know who is accountable for what. The SDA will be an appointed body, vaguely responsible to Parliament and under the broad control of the Secretary of State. However, given the provision of Clause 2 it is vitally important not to allow the SDA to act unilaterally. Someone must be responsible and accountable.

The Scottish National Party believes that the appropriate body is the Scottish Assembly. This cannot be done overnight. My hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire suggested that we create a body analagous to the Irish development authority which reports yearly to the Dail. In the same way the SDA could report yearly to the Scottish Assembly while possessing powers and finances based on a rolling five-year programme.

What will happen to the Secretary of State if these economic powers are given to the Scottish Assembly? The people of Scotland face a genuine democratic choice. Will they give powers over the Scottish economy to a genuinely democratic body accountable to the people of Scotland, or will they leave those powers with the Secretary of State?

It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.