§ 13. Mr. Adleyasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what studies his Department is making about the contribution that the tram can make towards the solution of urban transport problems.
§ Mr. CarmichaelThe character sties of tramways are well known and the prospects of introducing them have been studied in a number of cases
§ Mr. AdleyI understand the difficulty of merely returning to the old system, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that because of the fuel crisis and fears about urban pollution, major cities such as Amsterdam, Zurich and Melbourne may have something to teach us about the way in which we disposed of our trams and trolley buses so quickly. Does he also agree that the advent of bus lanes in so many British cities is a tacit acknowledgement that reserving traffic accommodation for public service vehicles is something that should be given further study by the Government?
§ Mr. CarmichaelI think the hon. Gentleman should know that the last matter to which he referred is continually being studied and that as new transportation studies come forward from local authorities the provision of segregated public transport lanes, particularly in the crucial areas, is given a great deal of priority. It is for local authorities to decide which transport system best meets their needs, but, as a general point, it is one thing to retain and improve an existing tram system in some cities and quite another to reintroduce it on existing streets. A segregated system is being built on Tyne-side and Clydeside. The Tyneside metro is to use an extension of the British Rail tracks, and this could be done in many cities in Britain.
§ Mr. Ronald AtkinsMay I urge the Minister, nevertheless, to consider favourably the reintroduction of an improved tram system, bearing in mind the fact that trams were replaced by buses when petrol was cheap and when pollution was ignored, and also the fact that studies on the introduction of electric traction in urban areas by means of battery cars show that they are much more expensive and less efficient technically than overhead wires would be?
§ Mr. CarmichaelOn the question of the buses being introduced because of cheaper petrol, one of the other reasons was that in the expanding towns buses provided greater flexibility than tramcars. The points raised by my hon. Friend and other hon. Members are being studied not just in Britain but throughout the world, because we all realise that the question of urban transport will need to be considered in great depth and all new systems will 1351 require thorough examination. We are trying to do that as fast as resources and ability allow.
§ Mr. FryI respect the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley), but does the hon. Gentleman agree that a far greater contribution could be made to solving our urban transport problem by two other means—first, a good look at the way in which schoolchildren are transported to school and the more effective use of such transport, and, secondly, a look at the whole question of licensing public service vehicles? It is obvious that in many parts of the country the National Bus Company is failing to meet public need.
§ Mr. CarmichaelThe hon. Member is now moving on to rural rather than urban transport. There are historic reasons as between the National Bus Company and local authorities concerning the provision of the services. It is a question that we are always considering.
On the general question of schoolchildren, one of the real problems of modern society is that almost everyone wishes to travel between 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the morning and 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock at night, and this puts an intolerable strain on any public service.
§ Sir John HallAs it is now three or four years since the Select Committee on Expenditure published its report on urban transport planning, with strong recommendations about the use of special traffic lanes for public transport, will the Under-Secretary say why it has taken so long to implement those excellent recommendations?
§ Mr. CarmichaelA great deal of this is ultimately the responsibility of the local authorities, and whenever possible the Department encourages them. We have made a number of studies—for example, in South Hampshire, Sheffield and Rotherham—on the question of segregated services, trams, and so on. It is an easier problem to state than to solve. It is not easy to go into an existing urban area and say that a particular area shall be totally segregated for public transport. It can be done only on a local basis, with as much encouragement from Central Government as possible.