THE INITIAL DEBT (Hansard, 13 October 1975)

§ The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. John Morris)
I beg to move Amendment No. 278, in page 11, line 15, leave out '£750,000' and insert '£100,000'.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas)
With this we are taking Amendment No. 49, leave out '£750,000' and insert '£500,000'.

§ Mr. Morris
The clause authorises an initial debt of £750,000 to the Authority. My amendment seeks to reduce it £100,000. The Opposition Amendment No. 49 seeks to reduce it to £500,000, so I have gone further than have the Opposition.
The clause envisages the incurring of expenditure on salaries, rent and so on before the Land Authority is established under this measure. The initial debt was calculated at the beginning of 1975 and only a tentative suggestion was incorporated in the Bill. It is now clear that the debt would be considerably less. No staff will be appointed before the Royal Assent and the main contingency is for accommodation. The figure I propose would certainly meet the needs of the Land Authority.

§ Mr. Wyn Roberts
I am tempted to begin by saying, "What a fall was there. 1010 my countryman", or whatever the appropriate quotation is. This is a very significant reduction. In Committee, we pressed that there should be a reduction to £7,500, but that was a probing amendment and it seems to have found its mark. We were very concerned and still are concerned, that a figure of the size of £750,000 could find its way into the Bill and that there should be a substitution at this late stage.
It has thrown considerable doubt on the Government's method of estimating their financial requirements under the Bill. I am sorry that another amendment which suggested a reduction in the long-term debt of between £40 million and £60 million is not open for discussion, but perhaps we may return to that point at a later stage of the Bill. The Secretary of State is at least four ahead of us. He has beaten our amendment asking for a reduction to £500,000 by requesting a reduction to £100,000. We would not want, therefore, to press ahead with our proposal.

§ Mr. Budgen
Before the Front Benches finish their mutual congratulations, I hope that the Secretary of State will be a little more frank. In calculating the number of purchases required by the Land Authority of Wales, and in making various financial calculations, one does not expect civil servants to be as far out as the difference between £100,000 and £750,000. A few bits of furniture here, a few pension rights there, and a few land purchases elsewhere do not account for the enormous difference.
Why does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman bite the bullet and be honest and say that the exceptions and exemptions that have been announced are substantial, and that the area of land upon which this monstrous Bill will bite has been substantially reduced? Why does he not say that the Government are at last aware of the enormous size of the borrowing requirement, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mr. Sainsbury) and I drew attention in Committee, and that they are trying to cut expenditure? To pretend that there has been some small error in estimating by civil servants is so much hooey, and I do not think that anyone can accept it without bursting into laughter.